The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
- Thread starter WingsofFury
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I just don’t understand the logic of replacing Gen 4 fighters with…Gen 4 fighters, which is what I’m afraid the GoC will do. I have a hard time seeing them going with this SAAB deal and still purchase at least 65 American Gen 5 fighters…
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Has anyone actually decided to cut the F35 order? Or proceed with the buy beyond the first 16 yet? Or is this still speculation?
Like some others here I am in favour of buying all 88 F35s. At the same time LM and the US have not been doing themselves any favours by letting situations like this occur:
ukdefencejournal.org.uk
It is not just the US that has been hurt by the Continuous Improvement exercise that has delayed Block 4 and US weapons integration. Lack of access to a continually changing software system is not going to allow foreign partners to integrate their full inventory of weapons with the F35 in a timely fashion. Development needs to happen at Ukrainian pace and that means Israeli levels of access to the codes.
Israel's F35's weapons suite
Rampage ALBM
1000 kg bomb that can be internally carried
Python 5 AAM
Spice PGM Bombs (1000 and 2000 lb)
Derby AAM
EW suite nationally procured
C4I suite that operates on top of the factory sets
As well as the US made
GBU-31 JDAM and
AIM-120 AMRAAM.
....
UK - AIM-132 and Paveway IV
Norway - AIM-120, JDAM, SDB, AIM-9X, JSM
US - AIM-120, AIM-9X, JDAM (GBU-31, -32, -38) GBU-12 Paveway II, GBU-39 SDB, B61-12 Nuclear Gravity Bomb)
....
The feel is less one of co-operation and more one of compulsion.
Like some others here I am in favour of buying all 88 F35s. At the same time LM and the US have not been doing themselves any favours by letting situations like this occur:
UK confirms FC/ASW fit checks on F-35B, no integration plan
F-35B fit checks were conducted to confirm that FC/ASW could be mounted "if required", with no current plan to integrate it to the aircraft.
ukdefencejournal.org.uk
It is not just the US that has been hurt by the Continuous Improvement exercise that has delayed Block 4 and US weapons integration. Lack of access to a continually changing software system is not going to allow foreign partners to integrate their full inventory of weapons with the F35 in a timely fashion. Development needs to happen at Ukrainian pace and that means Israeli levels of access to the codes.
Israel's F35's weapons suite
Rampage ALBM
1000 kg bomb that can be internally carried
Python 5 AAM
Spice PGM Bombs (1000 and 2000 lb)
Derby AAM
EW suite nationally procured
C4I suite that operates on top of the factory sets
As well as the US made
GBU-31 JDAM and
AIM-120 AMRAAM.
....
UK - AIM-132 and Paveway IV
Norway - AIM-120, JDAM, SDB, AIM-9X, JSM
US - AIM-120, AIM-9X, JDAM (GBU-31, -32, -38) GBU-12 Paveway II, GBU-39 SDB, B61-12 Nuclear Gravity Bomb)
....
The feel is less one of co-operation and more one of compulsion.
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Meanwhile, how about the Gripen as an advanced trainer with combat utility?
The Swedish Air Force goes straight from the Grob to the Gripen. Is it that easy to fly? Would it make a Hawk replacement that could be an intermediate step between the Pilatus and the F35?
en.wikipedia.org
The Swedish Air Force goes straight from the Grob to the Gripen. Is it that easy to fly? Would it make a Hawk replacement that could be an intermediate step between the Pilatus and the F35?
Sweden orders additional Grob 120TP aircraft - Alert 5
The Swedish Defence Materiel Administration (FMV) has signed a contract for three more Grob 120TP training aircraft, further enhancing the Swedish Air Force’s training capabilities. This follows an initial order in 2021 for 10 aircraft and a simulator, demonstrating Sweden’s commitment to...
alert5.com
Grob G 120TP - Wikipedia
Meanwhile, how about the Gripen as an advanced trainer with combat utility?
The Swedish Air Force goes straight from the Grob to the Gripen. Is it that easy to fly? Would it make a Hawk replacement that could be an intermediate step between the Pilatus and the F35?
Sweden orders additional Grob 120TP aircraft - Alert 5
The Swedish Defence Materiel Administration (FMV) has signed a contract for three more Grob 120TP training aircraft, further enhancing the Swedish Air Force’s training capabilities. This follows an initial order in 2021 for 10 aircraft and a simulator, demonstrating Sweden’s commitment to...alert5.comGrob G 120TP - Wikipedia
Kirkhill, here is Canadian Defence Review's article on the Gripen,
canadiandefencereview.com
Saab GRIPEN Canada - Fighter Jet - Canadian Defence Review
Saab GRIPEN E: With renewed interest in the RCAF operating a mixed fleet of F-35s and Gripens, CDR is revisiting our Gripen E cover story.
canadiandefencereview.com
They sound like fans…Kirkhill, here is Canadian Defence Review's article on the Gripen,
Saab GRIPEN Canada - Fighter Jet - Canadian Defence Review
Saab GRIPEN E: With renewed interest in the RCAF operating a mixed fleet of F-35s and Gripens, CDR is revisiting our Gripen E cover story.
It is not.
However, it’s. It only valid, but strategically necessary at this point to freshly reassess our dependencies and reliance’s on the U.S., and to game out the impacts certain U.S. policy choices could have on our defense capabilities, defence production, and our larger economy and industrial base. “Fuck Trump” is not a strategic imperative, nor is it a total equation. But “Will Trump get pissy if he loses his tariffs in court and look for a new way to fuck Canada in the ass?” is a valid question to ponder.
We need a few things. They’re partially aligned, partially overlapping, and partially distinct.
We need potent, and long term viable tactical air capabilities that RCAF pilots can fly into harms way when it’s necessary to kill people and break their shit.
We need to grow the hell up as a country and rebuild not just our direct defence production, but our larger industrial and human capital that permits the rapid growth of such an industrial base when we suddenly need it.
We need to get an economic and diplomatic wheel alignment. Freshly assess what our national interest is, and reassess who it aligns with, where, and how. And then adjust as needed. We need this as a matter of economic, military, and political sovereignty.
The range of outcomes of this will still all leave us heavily dependent on the U.S. for a lot of equipment in the near to mid term. For some stuff, F-35 is the only game in town until Gen 6 is rolling out. The U.S. makes the best of a lot of stuff and for some roles we need that best. But we may also be able to build upon core equisite capabilities with an additional “more that’s good enough”. That might mean an additional inventory of (insert equipment here) that isn’t the absolute best, but that bolsters our capabilities in a cost effective way. And in doing so, we may enhance our defence production base and pull or retain more of the economic human capital thusly needed.
Now, I’m not saying “buy Gripens too”. Obviously I’m open to it but I also don’t know what I don’t know. Nobody has given me a hat with a propellor on it, I cannot speak with any authority to what our RCAF should look like.
“Fuck Trump” is an emotional heuristic for “This guy and his policies are grave symptoms of a fundamental shift in our relationship, and we are now being treated transactionally. So let’s get transactional.” While he’s gonna come in for a grope or three, we are not obliged, as a sovereign state, to ‘just let him grab us by the pussy’ and not act economically and diplomatically to counteract that.
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I agree with your entire post, but really want to hit this point home.
Canada isn't America. Canada isn't going to fight a "peer" enemy alone, nor are we likely to pick the fight and go first strike.
With that in mind, having lots of "good enough" platforms, with the industrial base to make more of them, is likely far more realistically important in the next fight, than having a small fleet of top tier platforms that we can't replace because our sole supplier is too busy replacing their loses.
I get that the F-35 is the best option, if one only considers platform performance. Does that still hold up when you look beyond that? Is the F-35 actually the best for Canada and our realistic place in the world? Is the RCAF too USAF centric in their thinking?
Prairie canuck
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Add replacements for the Snowbirds and it may look like 30 Gripen 2 seaters E max? Definitely not in any way an F35 replacement but potentially a very good Hawk and Tutor replacement.Meanwhile, how about the Gripen as an advanced trainer with combat utility?
The Swedish Air Force goes straight from the Grob to the Gripen. Is it that easy to fly? Would it make a Hawk replacement that could be an intermediate step between the Pilatus and the F35?
Sweden orders additional Grob 120TP aircraft - Alert 5
The Swedish Defence Materiel Administration (FMV) has signed a contract for three more Grob 120TP training aircraft, further enhancing the Swedish Air Force’s training capabilities. This follows an initial order in 2021 for 10 aircraft and a simulator, demonstrating Sweden’s commitment to...alert5.comGrob G 120TP - Wikipedia
Maxman1
Army.ca Veteran
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A Gripen is way overkill for a trainer and demonstration plane.
