The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[ytz]

If the RCAF knows how to run itself, then it should know how to get itself out of the situation that they allowed themselves to get into in the first place. True statement?

Knowing full well that the information that is publicly available rarely tells the whole, complete story,

Knowing the solution and having the resources to implement it are two different things. Not to mention priorities that impact from higher. If you have a certain pool of pilots and the government or the CAF decides that ops takes precedence over pilot production, well that's life.

And of course now we have compounding effects with the reboot of the entire pilot training system.

 

[ytz]

I've heard some on here in the RCN that Topshee is not 'liked' by some because he is 'too vocal', to willing to speak directly and openly to the Canadian public. Well, I say is refreshing to be told the truth, no matter how much I don't want to hear bad news. Maybe its time that the RCAF's top commander starts speaking loudly and publicly like a Topshee and positive change may happen. What is there to lose?

For better or worse the F-35 is way more politically sensitive. So just about most things the Commander would say will either fall on deaf ears or worse be interpreted as political interference by a public servant.

Keep in mind that this forum is the faithful who will readily accept what she says. What the hell can she say to convert those who believe the F-35 has kill switches or that the US simply won't supply parts or that the RCAF has gamed the selection? You can't convince people who are understandable. And in this case, it's best for her to just stay out of the public limelight.

I have zero doubts there's all kinds of conversations and memos flying behind the scene given the hours my own BGEN responds to his emails.

Also, even Topshee holds his fire on things that the public would find hard to hear. You'll never hear Topshee say we pay Irving too much and should build surface combatants in Korea too. And given the price tag, there's no way the RCN leadership hasn't had that thought.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Knowing the solution and having the resources to implement it are two different things. Not to mention priorities that impact from higher. If you have a certain pool of pilots and the government or the CAF decides that ops takes precedence over pilot production, well that's life.

And of course now we have compounding effects with the reboot of the entire pilot training system.

And that speaks directly to the need to make the situation known to ALL interested parties - which means the Canadian public.

'Critical state': Top Royal Canadian Navy officer sounds alarm on fleet's readiness - Breaking Defense

Vice Adm. Angus Topshee in a video posted Monday said the problems plaguing his fleet threaten the service's ability to meet its obligations next year and "beyond."

breakingdefense.com

“The RCN faces some very serious challenges right now that could mean we fail to meet our force posture and readiness commitments in 2024 and beyond,” Vice Adm. Angus Topshee said in a five-minute video posted to the RCN’s YouTube channel on Monday."

What he said/did was a massive gamble - full stop - but do you think that he achieved that he was hoping to by going public? I am in the camp that he did.

Has any RCAF commander said anything similar over the last 7yrs? If they had said back in 2018 or 2019 the following statement - "The RCAF faces some very serious challenges right now that could mean we fail to meet our NORAD force posture and readiness commitments in 2020 and beyond."

If they had made that statement, do you think that the US Commander of NORAD would have quietly sat back and said or did nothing? Do you think that the training of pilots to address the massive shortfall would have been addressed? I guess we'll never know. Instead, muddling along for 7yrs has occurred and the need is ever greater now.

 

[ytz]

Unfortunately uneducated Canadians get a say in what we are equipped with. What we hope is that the heed the advice from CAF members.

Sure. But this "debate" has taken on a life of its own. The only thing Carney ever said was that more of Canada's defence spending should stay in Canada. Not once has he ever said that we shouldn't buy weapons from the US. Or that it's a risk to do so. Anti-American is hysteria is so high though is that this is what it became. And for some reason the public believe they can understand fighter jets better than ships or MLRS so the F-35 gets all the attention. The RCAF and the fighter community here is just unlucky here. The rest of you should count your stars.

What I wish we had was just a little bit more of an ex military lobby that can do what our GOFOs can't, in moments like these, and get on TV and explain. Too many of them end up as private sector lobbyist instead of at think tanks like in the US or the UK. So you can never get a non-partisan opinion defending the CAF interest. It's not going to help if Billie Flynn is doing interviews defending the F-35.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Sure. But this "debate" has taken on a life of its own. The only thing Carney ever said was that more of Canada's defence spending should stay in Canada. Not once has he ever said that we shouldn't buy weapons from the US. Or that it's a risk to do so. Anti-American is hysteria is so high though is that this is what it became. And for some reason the public believe they can understand fighter jets better than ships or MLRS so the F-35 gets all the attention. The RCAF and the fighter community here is just unlucky here. The rest of you should count your stars.

What I wish we had was just a little bit more of an ex military lobby that can do what our GOFOs can't, in moments like these, and get on TV and explain. Too many of them end up as private sector lobbyist instead of at think tanks like in the US or the UK. So you can never get a non-partisan opinion defending the CAF interest. It's not going to help if Billie Flynn is doing interviews defending the F-35.

We're on the same team. I am merely pointing out that the unwashed masses have a say is all.

 

[ytz]

Has any RCAF commander said anything similar over the last 7yrs? If they had said back in 2018 or 2019 the following statement - "The RCAF faces some very serious challenges right now that could mean we fail to meet our NORAD force posture and readiness commitments in 2020 and beyond."

They did exactly that. In Parliament. And that's what the Trudeau Liberals used as an excuse to try and sole source the Super Hornet. It was a nice setup.

 

[Furniture]

Not once has he ever said that we shouldn't buy weapons from the US.

He did say we need to diversify away from spending most of our money in America, and America has not helped the public image by turning off weapons supplies to Ukraine in the middle of it's fight for survival.

What I wish we had was just a little bit more of an ex military lobby that can do what our GOFOs can't, in moments like these, and get on TV and explain. Too many of them end up as private sector lobbyist instead of at think tanks like in the US or the UK.

This is a massive part of why the public neither trusts the RCAF, nor former RCAF officers to make the decisions. Too many end up working for the very companies they bought from, or decided we need to buy from.

It's easy to get pissy about the public not trusting the CAF, but the CAF has been caught rigging bids in the past..

 

[Czech_pivo]

They did exactly that. In Parliament. And that's what the Trudeau Liberals used as an excuse to try and sole source the Super Hornet. It was a nice setup.

Then they failed to get correct msg across.

Was the issue the failing of the trainer programme or the lack of airframes worthy of flying back in 2018? Or both?

Over the last 5yrs I do not believe that there has been any publicly made statements regarding a lack of airworthy airframes - its ALL been around a failure to produce enough pilots. Correct statement?

The purchase of the 25+/- Australian F18's were meant to address any potential shortfall in airworthy airframes. Regarding the fact that few (3?) of them have been made airworthy again doesn't seem to be an issue, at least not publicly available to us unwashed masses.

The issue in 2018 was the failing of the pilot trainer programme. The issue is 2025 is the failing of the pilot trainer programme.

For the record, I have always said that we need the F35 - and - if you look back 1-3yrs on here, you'll see that I've always said that having 88 fighters (whether all F35 or a mix) was NOT ENOUGH. I am of the belief that we are in need of 100+ fighters. The number 88 is Canada doing what its been doing for the last 100+yrs, the bare minimum or just above the minimum.

In the end, I am on your side - I want what you want, a fully funded and supported RCAF (and by default a fully funded and supported CAF), but I'm bringing up the argument that the pilot training issues has at best stagnated over the last 7yrs and a radical new solution should be seriously explored as the fix.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Then they failed to get correct msg across.

Was the issue the failing of the trainer programme or the lack of airframes worthy of flying back in 2018? Or both?

Over the last 5yrs I do not believe that there has been any publicly made statements regarding a lack of airworthy airframes - its ALL been around a failure to produce enough pilots. Correct statement?

The purchase of the 25+/- Australian F18's were meant to address any potential shortfall in airworthy airframes. Regarding the fact that few (3?) of them have been made airworthy again doesn't seem to be an issue, at least not publicly available to us unwashed masses.

The issue in 2018 was the failing of the pilot trainer programme. The issue is 2025 is the failing of the pilot trainer programme.

For the record, I have always said that we need the F35 - and - if you look back 1-3yrs on here, you'll see that I've always said that having 88 fighters (whether all F35 or a mix) was NOT ENOUGH. I am of the belief that we are in need of 100+ fighters. The number 88 is Canada doing what its been doing for the last 100+yrs, the bare minimum or just above the minimum.

In the end, I am on your side - I want what you want, a fully funded and supported RCAF (and by default a fully funded and supported CAF), but I'm bringing up the argument that the pilot training issues has at best stagnated over the last 7yrs and a radical new solution should be seriously explored as the fix.

If Government simply does not want to hear what you are saying and will not give you anything like the resources required, then what?

That is literally what happened in that time period. The Trudeau Liberals were interested in Climate Change, Gender Issues and First Nations. Nothing else.

 

[Czech_pivo]

If Government simply does not want to hear what you are saying and will not give you anything like the resources required, then what?

That is literally what happened in that time period. The Trudeau Liberals were interested in Climate Change, Gender Issues and First Nations. Nothing else.

So maybe its time for the RCAF to publicly state that the $4+/- million a year to run the Snowbird programme is going to be cancelled and the money used to train 2 more new fighter pilots a year and the Snowbird aircrews and pilots will be reassigned to more pressing needs.

Radical times requires radical solutions.

 

[ytz]

So maybe its time for the RCAF to publicly state that the $4+/- million a year to run the Snowbird programme is going to be cancelled and the money used to train 2 more new fighter pilots a year and the Snowbird aircrews and pilots will be reassigned to more pressing needs.

Radical times requires radical solutions.

You actually believe the RCAF can blackmail the government?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

So maybe its time for the RCAF to publicly state that the $4+/- million a year to run the Snowbird programme is going to be cancelled and the money used to train 2 more new fighter pilots a year and the Snowbird aircrews and pilots will be reassigned to more pressing needs.

Radical times requires radical solutions.

You know what happens when that is tried? Commanders of the RCAF get fired. That’s what.

I will re-iterate: when the Prime Minister will not listen to your advice, you shut the fuck up and do your job. That is literally how a Parliamentary Democracy works.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Sure. But this "debate" has taken on a life of its own. The only thing Carney ever said was that more of Canada's defence spending should stay in Canada. Not once has he ever said that we shouldn't buy weapons from the US. Or that it's a risk to do so. Anti-American is hysteria is so high though is that this is what it became. And for some reason the public believe they can understand fighter jets better than ships or MLRS so the F-35 gets all the attention. The RCAF and the fighter community here is just unlucky here. The rest of you should count your stars.

What I wish we had was just a little bit more of an ex military lobby that can do what our GOFOs can't, in moments like these, and get on TV and explain. Too many of them end up as private sector lobbyist instead of at think tanks like in the US or the UK. So you can never get a non-partisan opinion defending the CAF interest. It's not going to help if Billie Flynn is doing interviews defending the F-35.

The thing is that ship building brings in a massive number of jobs at all skill levels as opposed to the aerospace industry which provides a much smaller jobset, requiring more specialized workers. At the shipyard we get up to 60 deliveries in one day, with maybe 100-200 contractors when busy. That ranges from the cleaners, coffee machine stockers, to gasket makers, painters, equipment operators, pipe benders, machinists, welders and a few other specialized skillsets. The amount sub contracting is staggering and it creates positive ripples through the entire region. This is what drives the "build it here and provide domestic jobs" The NSS will impact far more average people than a small fleet of fighter jet production.

Frankly we should have our own NSS program for aerospace for smaller aircraft, why we are flying ancient Twin Otters, rather than supporting the company that builds them, I don't know. Have the Feds pay a portion of the cost for new CL-215's so the Provinces can renew their fleets.

I also have the same thoughts for vehicles with guaranteed order level for domestic and specialized vehicles every year, with the hope of having the fleets renewed frequently.

 

[Czech_pivo]

You know what happens when that is tried? Commanders of the RCAF get fired. That’s what.

I will re-iterate: when the Prime Minister will not listen to your advice, you shut the fuck up and do your job. That is literally how a Parliamentary Democracy works.

Well thanks to @Halifax Tar sending me today the USN's take on Hellyer's Unification plans in '67 and the 'disagreements' among the RCN leadership, its seems that no less than 8 Vice Admirals chose to resign rather than follow the directions of the Minister Hellyer.

I guess I know now which branch of the CAF I would most logically fit into.