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The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0

And the problem will go away? Except now the assholes who don't obey laws will have guns.....and we won't.

I don’t believe @Jarnhamar thinks the problem will go away. Rather it’s the only way society at large will realize that they have been fed disinformation by charlatans to their and their societies detriment.
 
No offense, but that's a lot of words to say "no".


Your position hinges on the assertion that there is a meaningful, outcome relevant “functional difference in capability” between military flavored semi-automatic rifles and other commonly owned long guns. Such that banning one class meaningfully limits harm while leaving the rest intact. That premise is wet powder.


First, the “better tool” argument cuts both ways. Effectiveness is not an inherent property of cosmetic design or operating system. It is a function of shooter intent, competence, time, and target environment. History repeatedly shows that motivated offenders using bolt-action rifles, pump shotguns, or lever guns can and do inflict mass casualties. Rate of fire is not the limiting variable in most real world attacks. Target density and absence of resistance are (watch the unedited Christchurch shooting to see exactly what I mean). A bolt-action rifle in a static environment with unarmed victims is not meaningfully “less dangerous” in outcome than a semi-automatic rifle.


Second, people drawing a regulatory line at “military-appearing” (or military flavored as I like to say) rifles is not a capability-based distinction. It is an aesthetic and political one. Many hunting rifles:

a. fire the same bullets (if not bullets that are considerably larger with a hell of a lot more energy they hit with)
b. have equal or greater effective range
c. offer superior accuracy, and
d. can be employed with lethal efficiency in the same scenarios legislators claim to be preventing.

If the policy goal is to reduce lethality or prevent mass casualty events, then exempting traditional hunting rifles undermines the internal logic of the ban. You are not reducing access to lethal capability, you're relabeling which capabilities are socially acceptable. It's deceitful.


Third, Australia banned a bunch of firearms based on their actions. How deadly do you think a shooter would be if they had a sawed-off double barrel shotgun and pockets full of slugs or 00 buck? (or mixing them both). How fast can you reload a double barrel shotgun?


Lastly, your assurance that no one is coming for those guns rests entirely on political confidence. Once the justification for prohibition becomes “this class of firearm is too effective for civilian ownership,” there is no principled stopping point. The same logic applies cleanly to:

a. bolt-action rifles with detachable magazines,
b. high-caliber precision rifles; and
c. any long gun capable of sustained accurate fire.

That's my argument for banning your guns. 308's capable of long range shooting (I'm hardly Dallas Alexander and I can hit a man silhouette target at 800 meters), detachable magazine I can change in seconds. Slower but sustained rate of fire. Cargo pants full of 12 ga shells for a break open or pump action shotgun that won't jam. And some pistols just for flavor.

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If your hunting rifles are acceptable despite being demonstrably capable of mass harm, then banning “military-style” rifles is not about safety it's just is about optics. You're thinking your deadly firearms, capable of blowing away large animals from half a kilometer away, won't be banned next. :rolleyes:
 
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Your position hinges on the assertion that there is a meaningful, outcome relevant “functional difference in capability” between military flavored semi-automatic rifles and other commonly owned long guns. Such that banning one class meaningfully limits harm while leaving the rest intact. That premise is wet powder.
That premise played out in real time on Bondi beach.

That premise plays out in the purchasing decisions of militaries and LEO's globally.
 
That premise played out in real time on Bondi beach.

That premise plays out in the purchasing decisions of militaries and LEO's globally.

Bondi doesn't demonstrate what you claim. Australia banned all semi-automatic long guns (not military-style firearms based on appearance). That is a functional ban. You cannot use a comprehensive prohibition to justify a selective, optics-based ban.

As for militaries and police, their procurement decisions are driven by offensive parity, logistics, and liability, not by civilian mass-casualty prevention. The fact that a tool is optimal for professionals operating against armed adversaries does not make it uniquely responsible for harm against unarmed civilians.

If capability were the standard, hunting guns and precision rifles would not be exempt.

Read about Malcolm George Baker's weapon of choice. He could have easily doubled or tripled his body count had he not given up.

Don't kid yourself about how deadly your hunting guns are. I won't even start on how hunting rifles are used in more suicides in North America than AR15s. "If it saves one life" after all.
 
As for militaries and police, their procurement decisions are driven by offensive parity, logistics, and liability, not by civilian mass-casualty prevention. The fact that a tool is optimal for professionals operating against armed adversaries does not make it uniquely responsible for harm against unarmed civilians.
Aren't you kind of making/validating @IKnowNothing 's point here?

Read about Malcolm George Baker's weapon of choice. He could have easily doubled or tripled his body count had he not given up.
Kind of an apples and oranges example here. Baker stopped because he'd finished killing all the people he had a beef with.
 
Aren't you kind of making/validating @IKnowNothing 's point here?
I don't think so. It's speaking to combat effectiveness against armed opponents, not public safety. Two entirely different contexts.

Kind of an apples and oranges example here. Baker stopped because he'd finished killing all the people he had a beef with.

I think it reinforces my point. Even a low capacity shotgun that needs reloading after 2 shots can kill multiple people in a short time. Lethality depends on intent and opportunity, and not primarily cosmetic style or rate of fire.

He could have racked up 30 bodies if he kept going.

Cumbria shootings in 2010.
Sawed‑off double‑barrel shotgun along with a .22‑cal rifle. 12 dead, injured 11. Could have kept going but he shot himself.
 
Bondi doesn't demonstrate what you claim. Australia banned all semi-automatic long guns (not military-style firearms based on appearance). That is a functional ban. You cannot use a comprehensive prohibition to justify a selective, optics-based ban.
Plastic furniture is your red herring.

In any case- yes a functional ban limited the effectiveness of the tools the scumbags had available- saving lives.

As for militaries and police, their procurement decisions are driven by offensive parity, logistics, and liability, not by civilian mass-casualty prevention. The fact that a tool is optimal for professionals operating against armed adversaries does not make it...
Sounds like your describing one tool having greater functional capability than another
 
Speaking of deadly shotguns and short barrel rifles, here's a months-old article from Australia. Check out the dangerous guns they're getting off the streets.

More than 1,000 guns and parts seized in illicit weapon crackdown in Australia and New Zealand


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Not gonna happen Wendy. Or is it Nathalie?
Ad hominin coming out? That's not like you.

Liberals banned .22 caliber tin-can plinkers. I'm totally sure your lever 30-30 and 12 GA, both of which can kill a bear and put a soft-ball size hole through someone, is totally safe from being banned. PolySeSouvient and friends are totally fine with you having that life-taking firepower in your hands.
 
Ad hominin coming out? That's not like you.

Liberals banned .22 caliber tin-can plinkers. I'm totally sure your lever 30-30 and 12 GA, both of which can kill a bear and put a soft-ball size hole through someone, is totally safe from being banned. PolySeSouvient and friends are totally fine with you having that life-taking firepower in your hands.
My apologies. But you have put yourself in the position of arguing on their side- seemingly out of nothing but spite.

Poly wants what poly wants, but the confiscation has been put off (again) and the last time they pushed into fudd guns the weight of public opinion forced them back within days.
 
My apologies. But you have put yourself in the position of arguing on their side- seemingly out of nothing but spite.

I get it. I'm out thousands. I hope you lose your firearms. I'm pragmatic as to what the Liberal's next steps will be. You should be too. Especially if the CPC make a come back, they need something tangible; that's guns.

When someone argues that military style firearms are too dangerous vs hunting guns all that does is erode all firearm ownership. Because those hunting guns are arguably just as dangerous, and they're next.

As for arguing on their side - saying that semi-auto military style firearms are dangerous and should be banned is arguing on their side. It's helped them get guns banned piece by piece. And they won that one.

Someone with a gun, any gun (as I've shown in examples) can kill a lot of unarmed civilians. Especially unarmed panicked people in a confined space running around. PolySeSouvient et el argue about rate of fire and magazine capacity. My observation on it is that it comes down to intent and opportunity. Gabriel Wortman had both, it didn't matter what kind of gun he was using. In his situation using an AR15 may have saved lives vs heavier hunting guns. At the end of the day, maybe someone with an AR kills 15 people and someone with a shotgun "only" kills 12. Your hunting guns and mine are on the chopping block next.

Poly wants what poly wants, but the confiscation has been put off (again) and the last time they pushed into fudd guns the weight of public opinion forced them back within days.
We're not so dissimilar from Australia. They didn't even know how many dead bodies they had and they were already squawking about more gun control, like trained seals. Just like us and Nova Scotia. If some asshole in Canada lights up some kids with a shotgun or Winchester model 30-30 we know what's next.
 
I don't think so. It's speaking to combat effectiveness against armed opponents, not public safety. Two entirely different contexts.



I think it reinforces my point. Even a low capacity shotgun that needs reloading after 2 shots can kill multiple people in a short time. Lethality depends on intent and opportunity, and not primarily cosmetic style or rate of fire.

He could have racked up 30 bodies if he kept going.

Cumbria shootings in 2010.
Sawed‑off double‑barrel shotgun along with a .22‑cal rifle. 12 dead, injured 11. Could have kept going but he shot himself.
I don't want to wade too hard into this. But! I just read the detailed step by step account of the Quebec City mosque shooting. I am confident (though not fully convinced) that if he was limited to a bolt action rifle, the death toll could have been lower. The rifle (let's say a 308) would have done more damage individually, but several of the victims tried to flee and one even attempted to wrestle with the shooter, and the longer barrel, the need to re chamber a round after each shot and with smaller magazine size (unless he obtained an illegal extended mag) could have played into the victims favour. Now, this was a close quarters situation, so I'm not claiming this entirely universally, but in this case I think it could have made a difference.
 
I don't want to wade too hard into this. But! I just read the detailed step by step account of the Quebec City mosque shooting. I am confident (though not fully convinced) that if he was limited to a bolt action rifle, the death toll could have been lower. The rifle (let's say a 308) would have done more damage individually, but several of the victims tried to flee and one even attempted to wrestle with the shooter, and the longer barrel, the need to re chamber a round after each shot and with smaller magazine size (unless he obtained an illegal extended mag) could have played into the victims favour. Now, this was a close quarters situation, so I'm not claiming this entirely universally, but in this case I think it could have made a difference.

You are aware of the current and previous regulations in Canada right? Your post indicates some gaps.
A bolt action rifle has no barrel length restrictions only the overall lengths apply.
A bolt action rifle has zero magazine capacity restrictions, you can have as many as you want.
 
but in this case I think it could have made a difference.
100% it could have.

A 308 could also go through a body at close range into another.

Also keep in mind The Mosque shooters high capacity semi-automatic rifle jammed before he got inside the mosque and he had to switch to his Glock 19 pistol, which is what he used to shoot everyone with. No one was killed with the rifle.

6 fatalities with a pistol. What if he had a shotgun with 5-7 rounds that could fire a big slug or OO Buck shooting 8 lead pellets per shot (or 15 per if he's using 3&1/2" shells)
 
Poly is never going to stop. I doubt they would stop at muzzle loaders.
Theres not much more restrictions for Australia to bring in either other than limiting to the above
banning composite stock SA instead of wood stock SA is stupid
this no mans land of the guns being banned but not banned is outrageous but better than confiscation
 
I get it. I'm out thousands. I hope you lose your firearms. I'm pragmatic as to what the Liberal's next steps will be.
I'm assuming there's a "don't" missing?

It's funny, because "pragmatic" is exactly the word i would use to describe my stance.
When someone argues that military style firearms are too dangerous vs hunting guns all that does is erode all firearm ownership.
Not "too"- "more". "More" is quantifiable, observable. "More" is the advantages that other factors can mitigate, that make them optimal for warfare, that provide offensive parity against Opfor (Contextually -LEO's)

"Too" is a subjective determination that will be made by society, based on competing information brought forward from both sides.
Because those hunting guns are arguably just as dangerous, and they're next.
Pragmatically- lets win the argument that's still winnable and keep it from happening.

To be clear - I'm not in favor of the bans. I'm ambivalent. I understand the core of them, I understand where the majority of public opinion falls, and it's not a hill I care to climb up and deny reality on, especially when I think it's a bad strategic move.
 
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