Quebec sovereignty?

[WLSC]

The other provinces in the past have hated the player (Qc), not the game (keeping the Feds from over-reaching down into provincial business). Now there’s some awakening after an unprecedented period of assumptive superiority and coercive behavior masked as virtuously caring for all…probably could do with more solidarity amongst the provinces.

I didn’t like the political player either but I understood the benefit and maybe the long game and I in all fairness on player side, the “Quebec bashing button” is the ROC scapegoat when the shit it the fan. Let say that all those politicians have missed the boat, big time and now, they are trying to catch up. Have you ever ask why QC voted for Trudeau and Lévesque at the same time?

 

[TacticalTea]

When to group of people are in a riff and the political/influencers loud speachers only point out ''les anglo'' or the ''franco'' instead of trying to resolve issue, you got the situations we have. Of course there's cultural differences, I would argue that les Québecois have more anglosaxon cultural influance then they realised and you might think. Iwould also argue that none are that far away or incompatible.

Right, so no, I'm not blind to our British heritage, I think it makes Quebec quite interesting, and I'd be surprised if an independent Quebec turned away from Common law.

My comment was not meant as some sort of us-v-them diatribe either, I was just rejecting the idea that cultural differences can be simply papered over. I actually don't think the two founding nations are irreconcilable, just that the current constitutional construct is conducive to secessionism.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Right, so no, I'm not blind to our British heritage, I think it makes Quebec quite interesting, and I'd be surprised if an independent Quebec turned away from Common law.

My comment was not meant as some sort of us-v-them diatribe either, I was just rejecting the idea that cultural differences can be simply papered over. I actually don't think the two founding nations are irreconcilable, just that the current constitutional construct is conducive to secessionism.

I would argue its actually the opposite.

Quebecs independence movement has faltered in the last 50 years directly as a result of the changes made to our constitutional construct.

I would argue Quebec lacks any real grievances at this point. They mostly just use the threat of succession to try and leverage more concessions instead of a legitimate threat to separate. Much like Alberta is.

The only real difference being in my opinion Alberta has a lot more to be upset about currently.

 

[WLSC]

Right, so no, I'm not blind to our British heritage, I think it makes Quebec quite interesting, and I'd be surprised if an independent Quebec turned away from Common law.

My comment was not meant as some sort of us-v-them diatribe either, I was just rejecting the idea that cultural differences can be simply papered over. I actually don't think the two founding nations are irreconcilable, just that the current constitutional construct is conducive to secessionism.

I kinda go with you and I blame the sovereignty movement. The constitution was written in a way that the Franco big brother could help all the francos communities all across Canada and QC did until the 60-70 or so then they stopped. It cause much turmoil and resentment. There was a constitutional reason, they killed it because they of reciprocal non interference principles.

 

[WLSC]

The only real difference being in my opinion Alberta has a lot more to be upset about currently.

I mostly agree with you. The founders of the movement where clear, not that they have grievances, it was a explain as a divorce because they felt we were at the end on the union. It was aspirational, not by grievance. It still been fuel by one thing, the Qc bashing. Whatever we do, a portion on the ROC will never accept it expected if we go away or at least get into the line. A bit like the Rep vs the Dem in the States.

That is fuelling a lot and explain a lot of that thread.

I’m more that happy when I see other Province standing up.

 

[KevinB]

I kinda go with you and I blame the sovereignty movement. The constitution was written in a way that the Franco big brother could help all the francos communities all across Canada and QC did until the 60-70 or so then they stopped. It cause much turmoil and resentment. There was a constitutional reason, they killed it because they of reciprocal non interference principles.

Well de Gaulle’s 1967 Montreal City Hall Balcony speech sort of put frosty into the Canadian - French relationship for a bit.

Then PM Pearson replied that no Canadian or Quebecer needed liberating.

 

[WLSC]

Well de Gaulle’s 1967 Montreal City Hall Balcony speech sort of put frosty into the Canadian - French relationship for a bit.

Then PM Pearson replied that no Canadian or Quebecer needed liberating.

De Gaulle had the habit of saying ''Vive le (fill where you want) libre''. He was told not to but is love for the Anglo-saxon world was such that he could not resist to kick the bee's nest. That created the impression of international support for the cause... He could have stayed home IMHO.

 

[GK .Dundas]

One of the truly ironic things that came out of the whole affair of the balcony speech by DeGaulle.
Apparently the only people who were more outraged then the Federal Government were the FLQ.

De Gaulle had the habit of saying ''Vive le (fill where you want) libre''. He was told not to but is love for the Anglo-saxon world was such that he could not resist to kick the bee's nest. That created the impression of international support for the cause... He could have stayed home IMHO.

 

[WLSC]

One of the truly ironic things that came out of the whole affair of the balcony speech by DeGaulle.
Apparently the only people who were more outraged then the Federal Government were the FLQ.

I didn’t heard that one. He even pissed of the FLQ! Wow, what a master lol

 

[Halifax Tar]

Reviving this as the drums of a Que referendum are beating again...

I think many share this sentiment...

https://twitter.com/x/status/2002834427731480684

 

[Eaglelord17]

Reviving this as the drums of a Que referendum are beating again...

I think many share this sentiment...

https://twitter.com/x/status/2002834427731480684

If they want to separate thats fine. We should make things very clear to them on how it will go and make clear it won’t be better for them.

1) They wouldn’t get the entire province as the natives would get a large say.

2) Since them separating would be reopening the constitution I would recommend putting in you cannot hold a Quebec citizenship and Canadian citizenship, it is one or the other. No choice to play the system if things don’t work out.

3) We should also take advantage of that to kill bilingualism. Quebec is the only real winner in it (60% of the bilingual population lives in Quebec, yet that is what is required to get into all the higher positions in government, doesn’t sound like equal distribution for those jobs, almost like we are creating a government not reflective of Canadians), Canada would be stronger as a English only nation for government.

4) We will cut out the transfer payments completely.

I am tired of attempting to appease this greedy province which no matter how much we bend over for still refuses to be happy.

We have spent insane sums of money in transfer payments to them. Changed our constitution to equalize things for them. Basically gave them a monopoly over higher government positions despite the fact they only make up 21% of the population. Gave them more representation than most other provinces.

And in spite of all this they still stomp their feet like petulant children demanding more.

Maybe it is time to take the disciplinary route with them. Spoiling didn’t work, maybe some tough love might be better. Start dismantling all the special privileges beyond your average Canadian. Disavowing their NWC laws would be a good start.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Quebec separation is only marginally more likely than Alberta separation, which is to say not very much at all. Not much point worrying about the consequences or dreaming about imagined advantages.

The biggest imaginable gain is that it would upend the balance of federal political parties.

An opportunity for constitutional change is almost worthless without some long hard thought about the future structure of government. We'd have the same limited what-would-we-like-right-now thinking that we had in 1982.

 

[QV]

If Quebec separates the Maritimes are essentially cut off from the rest of Canada and might be better off joining New England.

 

[brihard]

If Quebec separates the Maritimes are essentially cut off from the rest of Canada and might be better off joining New England.

“Cut off” in what sense? Are you suggesting flows of trade and people would be more restrictive across a hypothetically independent Quebec than entering the U.S.? That seems a bit fantastical. Not as much as the notion of Atlantic Canadians having any interest in joining the U.S. though.

I expect a sovereign Quebec would look to already negotiate very free movement across its borders with Ontario and Nee. Brunswick before pulling the trigger on legal sovereignty. It would be an absolute economic necessity.

A hypothetical independent Quebec is already setting itself up for severe economic pain, all the more so if they impose any additional trade barriers with Canada.

 

[Halifax Tar]

If they want to separate thats fine. We should make things very clear to them on how it will go and make clear it won’t be better for them.

1) They wouldn’t get the entire province as the natives would get a large say.

2) Since them separating would be reopening the constitution I would recommend putting in you cannot hold a Quebec citizenship and Canadian citizenship, it is one or the other. No choice to play the system if things don’t work out.

3) We should also take advantage of that to kill bilingualism. Quebec is the only real winner in it (60% of the bilingual population lives in Quebec, yet that is what is required to get into all the higher positions in government, doesn’t sound like equal distribution for those jobs, almost like we are creating a government not reflective of Canadians), Canada would be stronger as a English only nation for government.

4) We will cut out the transfer payments completely.

I am tired of attempting to appease this greedy province which no matter how much we bend over for still refuses to be happy.

We have spent insane sums of money in transfer payments to them. Changed our constitution to equalize things for them. Basically gave them a monopoly over higher government positions despite the fact they only make up 21% of the population. Gave them more representation than most other provinces.

And in spite of all this they still stomp their feet like petulant children demanding more.

Maybe it is time to take the disciplinary route with them. Spoiling didn’t work, maybe some tough love might be better. Start dismantling all the special privileges beyond your average Canadian. Disavowing their NWC laws would be a good start.

If there should be another referendum, I just don't see the love in we had in '95 to keep them.

With changing demographics as well its a good chance its the shit or get off the pot moment for the separatists.

 

[Halifax Tar]

“Cut off” in what sense? Are you suggesting flows of trade and people would be more restrictive across a hypothetically independent Quebec than entering the U.S.? That seems a bit fantastical. Not as much as the notion of Atlantic Canadians having any interest in joining the U.S. though.

I expect a sovereign Quebec would look to already negotiate very free movement across its borders with Ontario and Nee. Brunswick before pulling the trigger on legal sovereignty. It would be an absolute economic necessity.

A hypothetical independent Quebec is already setting itself up for severe economic pain, all the more so if they impose any additional trade barriers with Canada.

Atlantic Canada would be in a precarious position.

But really should Que leave Canada I don't think the country will stay together. I expect it would balkanize with maybe Ont being what what's left of Canada, and I expect Atlantic Canada's next best life line is the New England states...

 

[brihard]

Atlantic Canada would be in a precarious position.

But really should Que leave Canada I don't think the country will stay together. I expect it would balkanize with maybe Ont being what what's left of Canada, and I expect Atlantic Canada's next best life line is the New England states...

Quebec's not leaving Canada. It's one of those things that polls some numbers if you ask a question that omits enough detail, but it'll never survive reality once the implications set in.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Quebec's not leaving Canada. It's one of those things that polls some numbers if you ask a question that omits enough detail, but it'll never survive reality once the implications set in.

You're probably right but it makes for an interesting what if scenario.

 

[OldSolduer]

A hypothetical independent Quebec is already setting itself up for severe economic pain, all the more so if they impose any additional trade barriers with Canada.

Maybe the Province of Quebec needs to feel a little economic pain?

 

[QV]

“Cut off” in what sense? Are you suggesting flows of trade and people would be more restrictive across a hypothetically independent Quebec than entering the U.S.? That is exactly what I suggest. Being 600kms away from your own country separated by another country tends to add some friction. That seems a bit fantastical. Not as much as the notion of Atlantic Canadians having any interest in joining the U.S. though. Neither is fantastical. Especially if you removed TDS from the equation. Enter a new POTUS, like say in the image of Obama, where most Canadians are fawning over, it's not out of the realm of the possible. Maritimes have a lot in common with New Englanders. The North/South relationships (BC/Washington, Alberta/Montana, Maritimes/New England) are in many circumstances closer than East/West.

I expect a sovereign Quebec would look to already negotiate very free movement across its borders with Ontario and Nee. Brunswick before pulling the trigger on legal sovereignty. It would be an absolute economic necessity.

A hypothetical independent Quebec is already setting itself up for severe economic pain, all the more so if they impose any additional trade barriers with Canada.