- Reaction score
- 12,567
- Points
- 1,160
The changing Arctic
I am going to guess that also means more muskeg.
I am going to guess that also means more muskeg.
The Arctic
- Thread starter Kirkhill
- Start date
- Reaction score
- 6,292
- Points
- 1,160
It probably means that the permafrost line is moving north. A lot of permafrost ground is already technically muskeg - just frozen. The creation of muskeg/bog/peatland takes centuries.
- Reaction score
- 12,567
- Points
- 1,160
Lots of submerged, picled and frozen mammoths and mastodons.
And the ground will be more difficult to ride on and walk over. More tracks and flying things.
And maybe some more navigable rivers and lakes? Railways are going to need to be elevated for more of their length I would think.
....
That Churchill railway, in 1912 it was the next big thing. The line to Prince Rupert was almost finished. It opened in 1914. The RNWMP had already set up operations at both Churchill and York Factory adjacent to Port Nelson and esablished M Division as their Hudson Bay Division. Those ports were still going concerns up until 1957 when the HBC closed its York Factory operations.
Just took a look at some costings. looking for @Humphrey Bogart to comment
Vancouver Sky Train Track - standard gauge - 375-400 MCAD / km
UK HS2 - 200 MUSD / km
Europe - 25-39 MUSD / km
US/Australia - 20-70 MUSD / km
Indonesia - 52 MUSD / km
These projects are often associated with urban environments and that tends to drive prices up.
Freight or regional rail is on the order of 1-2 MUSD / km assuming good ground.
Viaducts are given as typically costing 30 MUSD / km
Pipelines typically cost 1-5 MUSD / km
The TMX expansion, with its highly contentious and heavily urbanized termination, cost 35 MCAD / km on average.
- Reaction score
- 16,870
- Points
- 1,160
Prince Rupert was knee capped by the loss of Charles Hays when the Titanic sank, taking him and his capital with him. I suspect that ship going down cost the Canadian economy dearly.
- Reaction score
- 6,292
- Points
- 1,160
HBC might have operated York Factory (near the mouth of the Hayes River) until 1957 but steel was never laid to Port Nelson (near the mouth of the Nelson river, 18 Euclidian km north). Port Nelson never operated.
- Reaction score
- 19,036
- Points
- 1,160
Funny. I never knew he died on the Titanic.
Certainly a visionary but quite controversial. It was a time that was leading to the 20th Century being Canada's century - a promise that slowly withered away (or was frittered away) after WW2.
- Reaction score
- 12,567
- Points
- 1,160
Correct. But that was primarily because WW1 intervened and disrupted pre-WW1 plans based on the National Policy and membership in the British Empire Trade Zone.
Post WW1 Britain and its empire were different, Canada was different and America ... was richer and more boisterous. WW2 cemented those changes.
In many ways, exclusive of the British Empire, I see the current reset as a reversion to the trading environment before 1914.
And I see Canada's security system in much the same light.
Britain had been making it clear since 1871 that Canada was on its own and could expect no help against the Yanks. A fact solidified in 1905-06 with the withdrawal from Halifax and Esquimalt.
It is fascinating reviewing the defence plans for the era through the lens of the Militia Lists.
A nation of 8 million accepting 400,000 immigrants a year from all over with different cultural norms, brand new technologies in the form of railways, electricity, telegraphs and telephones, internal combustion engines, cars and flying machines .... and hostilish frenemy south of the border blowing hot and cold on free trade and very assertive of its Monroe Doctrine backed by its Big Stick, the Great White Fleet and willing to do anything to secure the Panama Canal and impose its suzerainty over Latin America while militarily defending a porous border with a restive revolutionary Mexico.
The 20th Century never happened.
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Fossil
- Reaction score
- 43,893
- Points
- 1,160
Then there's the elephant in the hydrographic survey room 
My latest article “Canadian Arctic Hydrography: Proceed with Alacrity” has just been published in the Canadian Naval Review (Volume 21, Number 3, 2026). With its percentage surveyed to a standard adequate for safe navigation standing at a paltry 15.8%, the waters of the Canadian Arctic are woefully inadequate for submarine operations. As Canada pursues a fleet of new submarines with particular emphasis on defence and security in the Arctic region, it is imperative that this deficiency be addressed. My article suggests dedicating significant hydrographic survey capability to the task and considers bringing the Canadian Hydrographic Service to join the Canadian Coast Guard under the umbrella of the Department of National Defence.
www.linkedin.com
My latest article “Canadian Arctic Hydrography: Proceed with Alacrity” has just been published in the Canadian Naval Review (Volume 21, Number 3, 2026). With its percentage surveyed to a standard adequate for safe navigation standing at a paltry 15.8%, the waters of the Canadian Arctic are woefully inadequate for submarine operations. As Canada pursues a fleet of new submarines with particular emphasis on defence and security in the Arctic region, it is imperative that this deficiency be addressed. My article suggests dedicating significant hydrographic survey capability to the task and considers bringing the Canadian Hydrographic Service to join the Canadian Coast Guard under the umbrella of the Department of National Defence.
My latest article “Canadian Arctic Hydrography: Proceed with Alacrity” has just been published in the Canadian Naval Review (Volume 21, Number 3, 2026). With its percentage surveyed to a standard… | Tom Tulloch
My latest article “Canadian Arctic Hydrography: Proceed with Alacrity” has just been published in the Canadian Naval Review (Volume 21, Number 3, 2026). With its percentage surveyed to a standard adequate for safe navigation standing at a paltry 15.8%, the waters of the Canadian Arctic are...
www.linkedin.com
- Reaction score
- 12,567
- Points
- 1,160
Then there's the elephant in the hydrographic survey room
My latest article “Canadian Arctic Hydrography: Proceed with Alacrity” has just been published in the Canadian Naval Review (Volume 21, Number 3, 2026). With its percentage surveyed to a standard adequate for safe navigation standing at a paltry 15.8%, the waters of the Canadian Arctic are woefully inadequate for submarine operations. As Canada pursues a fleet of new submarines with particular emphasis on defence and security in the Arctic region, it is imperative that this deficiency be addressed. My article suggests dedicating significant hydrographic survey capability to the task and considers bringing the Canadian Hydrographic Service to join the Canadian Coast Guard under the umbrella of the Department of National Defence.
My latest article “Canadian Arctic Hydrography: Proceed with Alacrity” has just been published in the Canadian Naval Review (Volume 21, Number 3, 2026). With its percentage surveyed to a standard… | Tom Tulloch
My latest article “Canadian Arctic Hydrography: Proceed with Alacrity” has just been published in the Canadian Naval Review (Volume 21, Number 3, 2026). With its percentage surveyed to a standard adequate for safe navigation standing at a paltry 15.8%, the waters of the Canadian Arctic are...
Further to that and my last
1905 Denmark and Norway split the sheets. The US started pressurind Denmark to give up its islands in the Americas, Norway's Amundsen, Britain's Scott and America's Peary were racing around our arctic trying to map, or in the vernacular of the day, discover, it. Politicians in Toronto, Quebec and Winnipeg were trying to figure out what to do with the northern lands and people that the 1912 border changes had dumped in their lap, and developers were running all over the place looking for copper, iron, oil and gas as well as hydro sites to supply this new economy.
And a war was in the offing....
As I said the 20th Century might never have happened..
Even the Mohammedan world looked pretty much as it does. Settled Turks, Persians and Indonesians facing off against each other and nomadic Arabs, Berbers and Bedu across uncertain borders afflicted with slavery and Sharia law.
Last edited:
- Reaction score
- 12,567
- Points
- 1,160
Saudi gave up slavery under duress in 1962.
Mauritania didn't outlaw slavery until 1981 but didn't criminalize it until 2007. The fight continues.
....
Cannibalism, not a Muslim practice but associated with traditional societies in The Arc of Instability, was not finally discontinued until the 1960s although, as with slavery, the fight continues.
Mauritania didn't outlaw slavery until 1981 but didn't criminalize it until 2007. The fight continues.
....
Cannibalism, not a Muslim practice but associated with traditional societies in The Arc of Instability, was not finally discontinued until the 1960s although, as with slavery, the fight continues.
- Reaction score
- 6,292
- Points
- 1,160
WWI halted construction around present day Gillam, and national restructuring of all railways except CP because of their collective insolvency delayed further construction until 1925. Sometime in the intervening years, probably a result of better surveying, they came to the realization that the mouth of the Nelson River was unsuitable as a harbour due to silting, shallowness and currents and switch to Churchill. Although further away, it had a naturally deep (ish) habour and somewhat less sailing time.
If they had stayed at Port Nelson, I suspect the whole concept of a blue water port and railway would have died a natural death in a few years, simply because of the cost to maintain navigation.
- Reaction score
- 12,567
- Points
- 1,160
Possibly.
But there was local economic and political pressure in support of the enterprise.
- Reaction score
- 12,567
- Points
- 1,160
Got me to thinking
Medium to large freighters of the era drew up to 9 meters with DWT of 5 to 10,000.
Trampers and Panama freighters drew in the 6 to 8 meter range.
Apparently the HBC bought Scott's Antarctic vessel The Discovery in 1905 for cargo service to the Bay
She drew about 6 meters (20 ft), was 172 ft long and displaced 1570 tonnes.
Fort McPherson - 58 ft Auxiliiary Motor Schooner with a 50 ton capacity - for local distribution in the Arctic
Fort York - 74 ft Auxilliary Motor Schooner with a 70 ton capacity that drew about 10 ft or 3 meters
1931 saw the sister ships Farnworth and Warkworth do a couple of experimental runs into Churchill after the rail line was complete.
Farnworth is recorded as loading 277,000 bushels of wheat, that is about 7500 tonnes.
All of which sounds like small beer, but it is comparable to the shipping of the era.
Other ports started with small ships and then modified themselves to accomodate the traffic.
- Reaction score
- 16,870
- Points
- 1,160
For small waterwaysThen there's the elephant in the hydrographic survey room
My latest article “Canadian Arctic Hydrography: Proceed with Alacrity” has just been published in the Canadian Naval Review (Volume 21, Number 3, 2026). With its percentage surveyed to a standard adequate for safe navigation standing at a paltry 15.8%, the waters of the Canadian Arctic are woefully inadequate for submarine operations. As Canada pursues a fleet of new submarines with particular emphasis on defence and security in the Arctic region, it is imperative that this deficiency be addressed. My article suggests dedicating significant hydrographic survey capability to the task and considers bringing the Canadian Hydrographic Service to join the Canadian Coast Guard under the umbrella of the Department of National Defence.
My latest article “Canadian Arctic Hydrography: Proceed with Alacrity” has just been published in the Canadian Naval Review (Volume 21, Number 3, 2026). With its percentage surveyed to a standard… | Tom Tulloch
My latest article “Canadian Arctic Hydrography: Proceed with Alacrity” has just been published in the Canadian Naval Review (Volume 21, Number 3, 2026). With its percentage surveyed to a standard adequate for safe navigation standing at a paltry 15.8%, the waters of the Canadian Arctic are...
For deeper and larger
Similar threads
