Indirect Fires Modernization Project - C3/M777 Replacement

[FJAG]

"Ukrainian crews typically require around six minutes from receiving target coordinates to firing the first round.

That's slow.

While the system is capable of firing up to six rounds per minute,

Not with a four man crew and bagged charges.

operators prioritize accuracy, usually maintaining a rate of one to two rounds per minute with continuous drone-based corrections.

Intervals between adjusting rounds are based on range and therefore time of flight. It is fairly easy to maintain accuracy/consistency between rounds.

"The howitzer is operated by a four-person crew and uses bagged propellant charges instead of metallic cartridges.

That's a point because the 152 system this replaces used metallic casings.

Unit personnel note that environmental factors such as air and propellant temperature directly affect firing accuracy,

Absolutely. This is is why we use Met detachments. Computers easily take non standard conditions into account if the data is obtained and entered.

with overheating occurring after five to seven rounds in warm conditions, while colder weather allows for up to ten accurate shots."

This is a bit weird. Yes. barrel heat can be a factor when a high number of rounds are fired in a short period, but one rarely leaves a gun loaded long enough to be effected by that. The outside temperature is a very minor factor in this. It makes me wonder about the steel of the barrel but . . .

So, a small target, hard to hit,

A 155, even towed, is not a small target. It makes a bold statement every time it fires which will immediately make its presence known. If found it is as susceptible to a hit as much as a wheeled or tracked carriage unless its well dug in and has an anti-drone cage. But then the method of engaging it is with artillery which is drone cage agnostic. The Russian problem is they are firing clapped out guns with crappy ammo so unless they have a terminally guided round available, accuracy is a problem.

little to damage, easy to repair.

It has the same susceptibility to damage as the Bohdana SP albeit the motor carriage is an added issue. Effectively it's the same gun above the carriage regardless. The towed gun also has a vehicle that can be put out of action. The only advantage is that the gun tractor is easier to replace than taking the SP's gun and transferring it to another carriage.

No onboard secondaries.

You've never been on a gun position. There's ammo everywhere (especially for bagged propellant) and, even if dug in as susceptible to secondaries as well.

There's no magic bullet for artillery regardless of whether it is towed or SP. The real problem with towed guns is their lack of mobility, Stay in one place after you fire and you will be found by radars and/or sound ranging followed by drones. Mobility and organic anti-drone defences coupled with multiple, well protected rearming hides to spoke out from to distributed gun platforms is currently the safest system. Efficient air defence between the front line and the gun platforms also matters.

One thing to remember as well is that the Ukraine battlefield is currently mostly static. Towed guns become problematic in keeping up with mobile forces.

Let me throw one thing out there. Drones are a paradigm shift in warfare. There are numerous responses to them but nothing half as effective as proper air defence. NATO has sat on its asses on that topic beyond developing very sophisticated and expensive missile systems against fast air and attack helicopters. Drones, in their various types and masses need a whole new response.

Every time I hear someone boasting that a gun only needs four people to operate it I ask, "who is doing ammo and who is doing air defence?" People have been able to operate guns with four men, or less, for centuries . . . its the ancillary people and equipment to sustain those four guys that really matter.

 

[Kirkhill]

That's slow.

Not with a four man crew and bagged charges.

Intervals between adjusting rounds are based on range and therefore time of flight. It is fairly easy to maintain accuracy/consistency between rounds.

That's a point because the 152 system this replaces used metallic casings.

Absolutely. This is is why we use Met detachments. Computers easily take non standard conditions into account if the data is obtained and entered.

This is a bit weird. Yes. barrel heat can be a factor when a high number of rounds are fired in a short period, but one rarely leaves a gun loaded long enough to be effected by that. The outside temperature is a very minor factor in this. It makes me wonder about the steel of the barrel but . . .

A 155, even towed, is not a small target. It makes a bold statement every time it fires which will immediately make its presence known. If found it is as susceptible to a hit as much as a wheeled or tracked carriage unless its well dug in and has an anti-drone cage. But then the method of engaging it is with artillery which is drone cage agnostic. The Russian problem is they are firing clapped out guns with crappy ammo so unless they have a terminally guided round available, accuracy is a problem.


It has the same susceptibility to damage as the Bohdana SP albeit the motor carriage is an added issue. Effectively it's the same gun above the carriage regardless. The towed gun also has a vehicle that can be put out of action. The only advantage is that the gun tractor is easier to replace than taking the SP's gun and transferring it to another carriage.

You've never been on a gun position. There's ammo everywhere (especially for bagged propellant) and, even if dug in as susceptible to secondaries as well.

There's no magic bullet for artillery regardless of whether it is towed or SP. The real problem with towed guns is their lack of mobility, Stay in one place after you fire and you will be found by radars and/or sound ranging followed by drones. Mobility and organic anti-drone defences coupled with multiple, well protected rearming hides to spoke out from to distributed gun platforms is currently the safest system. Efficient air defence between the front line and the gun platforms also matters.

One thing to remember as well is that the Ukraine battlefield is currently mostly static. Towed guns become problematic in keeping up with mobile forces.

Let me throw one thing out there. Drones are a paradigm shift in warfare. There are numerous responses to them but nothing half as effective as proper air defence. NATO has sat on its asses on that topic beyond developing very sophisticated and expensive missile systems against fast air and attack helicopters. Drones, in their various types and masses need a whole new response.

Every time I hear someone boasting that a gun only needs four people to operate it I ask, "who is doing ammo and who is doing air defence?" People have been able to operate guns with four men, or less, for centuries . . . its the ancillary people and equipment to sustain those four guys that really matter.

Does there have to be ammo everywhere if they are firing at a low rate on discrete targets?

The gunners seem to quite cautious judging from the quarter mile lanyards they seem to be using.




Here's a bit more on the 147th Separate's employment of the towed Bogdana.

"This gun is a sniper rifle". How artillerymen of the 147th Brigade fight with Ukrainian Bohdana-BGs

Trailed artillery has its own combat limitations, but it is now a trend on the modern battlefield. That is why the manufacturer of the Bohdana self-propelled artillery system, the Kramatorsk Heavy Machine Tool Plant, has developed a towed version of its howitzer. It was named Bogdana-BG. How did...

oboronka.mezha.ua

 

[FJAG]

Does there have to be ammo everywhere if they are firing at a low rate on discrete targets?

In short - yes - they still do. Not every round is a single round guided projectile. Much of it is fired as neutralizing fire with relatively standard rounds. You can't fire it if it isn't handy to the gun platform without having folks humping it through the woods. You don't need many rounds to have it "everywhere." As little as fifty rounds with their MAC charges takes up quite some space. If you are in an active zone you'd want even more on hand.

They didn't expend the hundreds of thousands of rounds they did by only firing on discrete targets. It's only lack of ammo that has cut things back and even then you don't stop an infiltrating "meat assault" with discrete rounds - its air burst and lots of it.

The gunners seem to quite cautious judging from the quarter mile lanyards they seem to be using.

I can honestly say that I've fired a fair share of rounds and seen a hundred times more fired. I've never seen a lanyard longer than three feet until these modern times and that includes our M777s.

The chance of a bore premature, while not zero, is pretty small. OTOH the concussion from a 155 firing, especially at a high charge, is pretty strong around a towed gun. We pay a lot more attention to traumatic brain injury these days. Ear defenders don't cut it for TBI. One more reason why SPs are better.