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Wondering how the CRAM is performing in the Gulf.
Canadian River Class Destroyer Megathread
- Thread starter jmt18325
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Thought they had 2 RAM launchers?
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Pretty sure it's a single 21 shot launcher.
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That was probably started by me. I made a supposition that when CAMM was removed it would be replaced with two RAM where the other T26 CIWS were located.
That was before the new drawings were released. I wrote it with probably more authoritative knowledge than I had at the time. Apologies.
Rainbow1910
Sr. Member
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It’s not just you, I’ve heard it from other people elsewhere as well.
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You underestimate my popularity.... lmao!
FSTO
Army.ca Fixture
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Angus
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Cool! Is it a 1/144 scale 3D printed model...? ;-)
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I just thought I would revisit the North Atlantic battlefield and in particular the GIUK Gap.
The UK's First Sea Lord seems quite stressed about being able to contain a rejuvenated Russian submarine fleet at Murmansk.
So the GIUK Gap is a 1000 km wide funnel that has sides about 800 km deep, roughly the sea distance from Nord Kapp to the Shetlands. paralleled by the Greenland coast on th other side of the gap.
The base of the funnel is a coarse filter anchored by Iceland, the Faroes, the Shetlands, the Orkneys, the Hebrides and the island of Great Britain.
All of those islands and shores host runways for fast jets and large patrol aircraft. The also host a lot of flat spots for Vertical Take Off and Land aircraft and heicopters.
....
So
What are the assts available to defend that water?
As of December 2025 that water, the responsibility of NATO's Joint Force Command - Norfolk, in Norfolk, Virginia has been handed to a British admiral.
That admiral is now responsible for the naval operations in the GIUK gap and High North of the UK and the NORDEFCO countries.
NORDEFCO is the Nordic Defence Co-Operation alliance. It includes the Scandinavian countries of Denmark, Iceland, Norway and Sweden, along with Denmark's islands of Greenland and the Faroes, as well as Finaland.
This group of countries also makes up the meat of the Joint Expeditionary Force where they are joined by the three Baltic nations of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. They are also joined by the Netherlands.
And I know that the Netherlands are not part of JFC-Norfolk, they have their own JFC at Brunsum, but the Dutch Navy and the RN have been joined at the hip since 1689. Consequently, based on history, the Atlantic facing geography and my sense of the politics, I am going to assume that the Dutch will be involved in securing the GIUK Gap along with the JJFC-Norfolk group.
Assuming that Finland will have its hands full engaging the Russians along the full length of its border, threatening Murmansk and joining the Balts in containing the Russians in St Petersburg and Kaliningrad, along with its lack of blue water assets and Atlantic coast, I think it is fair to say that the job rightly falls to the UK, Denmark and Norway with an assist from the Dutch. Iceland plays a supporting role. Sweden will be backstopping Finland in Nordkapp and in the Baltic.
The land forces of the Scandivavian peninsula, Finland and the Balts are going to be heavily engaged containing the Russians and denying them access to the airfields covering the GIUK Gap.
Those airfields will supply the primary coverage of the Gap.
So first looking at the aerial assets available to the combined Air Forces of the UK, Norway and Denmark.
As it stands the patrol and intelligence assets of those three nations comprise
16x MQ-9s with 4 more on order by Denmark and Norway cosidering its own package.
14x P-8s
3x Rivet Joints
12x short range patrol and intelligence gathering aircraft
Fighter coverage is available from
110x Typhoons from the RAF
73x F35-As from Norway and Denmark with the Netherlands holding another 52 F35-As.
48x F35-Bs from the RAF/RN
The RAF has 14 tankers and the Netherlands has 9 that could be available to sustain the cover.
There are also about 350 helicopters of various types operated by the UK, Norway and Denmark available to assist operations - ASW. ASuW, Atk, Tpt and Utility.
....
Now what plugs the gap at sea?
4x SSBNs with 4x 21" torpedo tubes and 16 missiles with 12 MIRV warheads each. The UK holds 120 operational warheads.
7x SSNs with 6x 21" tubes and 38 stowed weapons - a mix of Tomahawk cruise missiles and Soearfish torpedoes.
9x SSKs with - 6 with 8x 21" tubes and 14 torpedoes and 3 with 4x 21" tubes, 20 torpedoes and 20 mines.
On the surface there are
6x Type 45 AAW DDGs with no strike length VLS cells
7x AAW FFGs from Denmark and the Netherlands with a total of 286 strike cells among them
15x ASW FFGs (Type 23s, Karel Doorman's, Absalons and Fridtjof Nansens)
That screen is backstopped by the RN's two CVs which supply additional flat spots for helicopters and F35Bs.
...
That is the 1980s version of the screen and some of the hulls were sailing then.
....
But Drones.
And the First Sea Lord is leaning heavily into them.
Self-powered drifters for ISR and comms relay
Powered small craft for ISR
Powered small craft for mine clearance
Powered small craft for anti-surface warfare
Large USVs for logistics and as launch platforms for additional missiles.
Small, medium and large Vertical Take Off and Land UAVs for ISR and ASuW
Large UAVs capable of launching from shore for ISR and ASuW
CCAs.
Gliding UUVs for underwater ISR
Powered Small, Medium, Large and Extra Large UUVs for ISR, ASuW, Minelaying and Mineclearing
Those drones are cheap and fast to produce and can be use with the existing fleets of older platforms and aircraft.
For example, the two carriers with their F35-Bs and Merlins, can also lift Chinooks, Apaches and Wildcats.
But they have also been experimenting with small Mallloy VTUAVs for logistics and for launching sonobuoys and torpedoes. As well ther have been experiments with Rocket Assistd launches of target drones as analogs for some less exquisite CCA/UCAVs. And they have managed to get a Mojave STOL MQ-9 to park and launch from a Queen Elizabeth deck.
The Dutch will be taking delivery of a pair of 1000 tonne OSVs they are rigging to operate autonomously in company with their AAW FFGs to add depth to their at sea magazines.
The Brits have a flotilla of 12m autonomous minehunters, and have just bought 20 autonomous boats for patrol of the UK's coastal waters. They are preparing to contract with civilians to supply ISR coverage of th gap sing drfters, gliders and small powered craft that can deploy UUVs. They are also looking for someone to supply a radar that looks a lot like a Sea Giraffe in the next few months, that can be mounted in numbers on small autonomous boats to provide a floating air search picket.
....
If there is a significant shift to UxVs then that opens up a lot of other ships as platforms toact as motherships.
By my count The UK, Norway, Denmark, Iceland and the Netherlands operate about 48 blue water OSVs of 1500 tonnes or greater that are equipped to act as motherships. Most of them are Coast Guard vessels or OPVs and Patrol Frigates.
...
All of which means for Canada more usable life out of the Halifaxes, potentially more capabilities from the AOPVs and also, more crossover with Coast Guard vessels acting as motherships to UxVs - even without having to go into harm's way themselves.
...
And the final piece of the puzzle is the use of containerized weaponry. If that AOPs deck isn't going to be used for Cyclones or Cormorants perhaps it could be used for some Mk70 PDS launchers and still leave room for V-Bat VTUAVs. the lower deck and crane would still be free to support UUV and USV operations.
...
I asked earlier how we fought until the Rivers and the Patrol subs get here.
Judging from the pace the Brits, Norwegians, Duth and Danes are buying into these drones this eems to be their immediate course of action.
The UK's First Sea Lord seems quite stressed about being able to contain a rejuvenated Russian submarine fleet at Murmansk.
So the GIUK Gap is a 1000 km wide funnel that has sides about 800 km deep, roughly the sea distance from Nord Kapp to the Shetlands. paralleled by the Greenland coast on th other side of the gap.
The base of the funnel is a coarse filter anchored by Iceland, the Faroes, the Shetlands, the Orkneys, the Hebrides and the island of Great Britain.
All of those islands and shores host runways for fast jets and large patrol aircraft. The also host a lot of flat spots for Vertical Take Off and Land aircraft and heicopters.
....
So
What are the assts available to defend that water?
As of December 2025 that water, the responsibility of NATO's Joint Force Command - Norfolk, in Norfolk, Virginia has been handed to a British admiral.
That admiral is now responsible for the naval operations in the GIUK gap and High North of the UK and the NORDEFCO countries.
NORDEFCO is the Nordic Defence Co-Operation alliance. It includes the Scandinavian countries of Denmark, Iceland, Norway and Sweden, along with Denmark's islands of Greenland and the Faroes, as well as Finaland.
This group of countries also makes up the meat of the Joint Expeditionary Force where they are joined by the three Baltic nations of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. They are also joined by the Netherlands.
And I know that the Netherlands are not part of JFC-Norfolk, they have their own JFC at Brunsum, but the Dutch Navy and the RN have been joined at the hip since 1689. Consequently, based on history, the Atlantic facing geography and my sense of the politics, I am going to assume that the Dutch will be involved in securing the GIUK Gap along with the JJFC-Norfolk group.
Assuming that Finland will have its hands full engaging the Russians along the full length of its border, threatening Murmansk and joining the Balts in containing the Russians in St Petersburg and Kaliningrad, along with its lack of blue water assets and Atlantic coast, I think it is fair to say that the job rightly falls to the UK, Denmark and Norway with an assist from the Dutch. Iceland plays a supporting role. Sweden will be backstopping Finland in Nordkapp and in the Baltic.
The land forces of the Scandivavian peninsula, Finland and the Balts are going to be heavily engaged containing the Russians and denying them access to the airfields covering the GIUK Gap.
Those airfields will supply the primary coverage of the Gap.
So first looking at the aerial assets available to the combined Air Forces of the UK, Norway and Denmark.
As it stands the patrol and intelligence assets of those three nations comprise
16x MQ-9s with 4 more on order by Denmark and Norway cosidering its own package.
14x P-8s
3x Rivet Joints
12x short range patrol and intelligence gathering aircraft
Fighter coverage is available from
110x Typhoons from the RAF
73x F35-As from Norway and Denmark with the Netherlands holding another 52 F35-As.
48x F35-Bs from the RAF/RN
The RAF has 14 tankers and the Netherlands has 9 that could be available to sustain the cover.
There are also about 350 helicopters of various types operated by the UK, Norway and Denmark available to assist operations - ASW. ASuW, Atk, Tpt and Utility.
....
Now what plugs the gap at sea?
4x SSBNs with 4x 21" torpedo tubes and 16 missiles with 12 MIRV warheads each. The UK holds 120 operational warheads.
7x SSNs with 6x 21" tubes and 38 stowed weapons - a mix of Tomahawk cruise missiles and Soearfish torpedoes.
9x SSKs with - 6 with 8x 21" tubes and 14 torpedoes and 3 with 4x 21" tubes, 20 torpedoes and 20 mines.
On the surface there are
6x Type 45 AAW DDGs with no strike length VLS cells
7x AAW FFGs from Denmark and the Netherlands with a total of 286 strike cells among them
15x ASW FFGs (Type 23s, Karel Doorman's, Absalons and Fridtjof Nansens)
That screen is backstopped by the RN's two CVs which supply additional flat spots for helicopters and F35Bs.
...
That is the 1980s version of the screen and some of the hulls were sailing then.
....
But Drones.
And the First Sea Lord is leaning heavily into them.
Self-powered drifters for ISR and comms relay
Powered small craft for ISR
Powered small craft for mine clearance
Powered small craft for anti-surface warfare
Large USVs for logistics and as launch platforms for additional missiles.
Small, medium and large Vertical Take Off and Land UAVs for ISR and ASuW
Large UAVs capable of launching from shore for ISR and ASuW
CCAs.
Gliding UUVs for underwater ISR
Powered Small, Medium, Large and Extra Large UUVs for ISR, ASuW, Minelaying and Mineclearing
Those drones are cheap and fast to produce and can be use with the existing fleets of older platforms and aircraft.
For example, the two carriers with their F35-Bs and Merlins, can also lift Chinooks, Apaches and Wildcats.
But they have also been experimenting with small Mallloy VTUAVs for logistics and for launching sonobuoys and torpedoes. As well ther have been experiments with Rocket Assistd launches of target drones as analogs for some less exquisite CCA/UCAVs. And they have managed to get a Mojave STOL MQ-9 to park and launch from a Queen Elizabeth deck.
The Dutch will be taking delivery of a pair of 1000 tonne OSVs they are rigging to operate autonomously in company with their AAW FFGs to add depth to their at sea magazines.
The Brits have a flotilla of 12m autonomous minehunters, and have just bought 20 autonomous boats for patrol of the UK's coastal waters. They are preparing to contract with civilians to supply ISR coverage of th gap sing drfters, gliders and small powered craft that can deploy UUVs. They are also looking for someone to supply a radar that looks a lot like a Sea Giraffe in the next few months, that can be mounted in numbers on small autonomous boats to provide a floating air search picket.
....
If there is a significant shift to UxVs then that opens up a lot of other ships as platforms toact as motherships.
By my count The UK, Norway, Denmark, Iceland and the Netherlands operate about 48 blue water OSVs of 1500 tonnes or greater that are equipped to act as motherships. Most of them are Coast Guard vessels or OPVs and Patrol Frigates.
...
All of which means for Canada more usable life out of the Halifaxes, potentially more capabilities from the AOPVs and also, more crossover with Coast Guard vessels acting as motherships to UxVs - even without having to go into harm's way themselves.
...
And the final piece of the puzzle is the use of containerized weaponry. If that AOPs deck isn't going to be used for Cyclones or Cormorants perhaps it could be used for some Mk70 PDS launchers and still leave room for V-Bat VTUAVs. the lower deck and crane would still be free to support UUV and USV operations.
...
I asked earlier how we fought until the Rivers and the Patrol subs get here.
Judging from the pace the Brits, Norwegians, Duth and Danes are buying into these drones this eems to be their immediate course of action.
- Reaction score
- 12,869
- Points
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Project Horus
ukdefencejournal.org.uk
“The intention is to conduct a rapid market survey… selecting credible solutions; contracting and delivering the initial capability within four to six months,”
“mature products with providers that are able to work at pace.”
“adopt a System of System Approach; introduce mass via numerous lower-cost sensors on uncrewed assets able to persist in high threat situations,”
platforms should be capable of remaining on station for “30 days (Threshold) or up to 90 days (Objective) without human in-person intervention or maintenance,”
“reduce the crewed burden, reduce risk to life, [and] report air threats,”
detection thresholds including “NATO Class 2 uncrewed air systems… anti-ship and land attack cruise missiles; [and] Gen 3 to 4 fighter-bombers at not less than 15 nautical miles,” with future expansion to include surface threats such as fast attack craft and uncrewed vessels.
“a 2500km2 region must be persistently covered and reported on,” implying the need for multiple platforms operating in concert across a contested maritime environment.
....
15 nautical miles = 28 km
Area covered = 2500 km2
I don't think there is a need for multiple platforms. I do think the radar needs to be 150 feet above the surface. Now that could be a tall mast on a big boat or it could be a radar hanging from an aerostat tethered to a small boat.
Royal Navy seeks rapidly deployable drone picket ships
Project HORUS seeks rapidly deployable uncrewed sensors to detect drones, missiles and aircraft at sea.
ukdefencejournal.org.uk
“The intention is to conduct a rapid market survey… selecting credible solutions; contracting and delivering the initial capability within four to six months,”
“mature products with providers that are able to work at pace.”
“adopt a System of System Approach; introduce mass via numerous lower-cost sensors on uncrewed assets able to persist in high threat situations,”
platforms should be capable of remaining on station for “30 days (Threshold) or up to 90 days (Objective) without human in-person intervention or maintenance,”
“reduce the crewed burden, reduce risk to life, [and] report air threats,”
detection thresholds including “NATO Class 2 uncrewed air systems… anti-ship and land attack cruise missiles; [and] Gen 3 to 4 fighter-bombers at not less than 15 nautical miles,” with future expansion to include surface threats such as fast attack craft and uncrewed vessels.
“a 2500km2 region must be persistently covered and reported on,” implying the need for multiple platforms operating in concert across a contested maritime environment.
....
15 nautical miles = 28 km
Area covered = 2500 km2
I don't think there is a need for multiple platforms. I do think the radar needs to be 150 feet above the surface. Now that could be a tall mast on a big boat or it could be a radar hanging from an aerostat tethered to a small boat.
Last edited:
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Navy to buy 20 uncrewed boats as testbeds for future operations
The Royal Navy is set to purchase 20 uncrewed boats as it looks to build on its ability to merge both crewed and uncrewed forces.
www.royalnavy.mod.uk
K3 SCOUT — KRAKEN TECHNOLOGY
www.krakentechnology.com
Contract award 11 March 2026
16.5 MUSD for 20 Kraken K3 Scouts
Contract let 5 November 2025
Proof of concept trials 28 to 31 October 2025
Royal Navy Puts Rattler Unmanned Surface Vessels to the Test - USNI News
The Royal Navy recently tested shadowing warships with a swarm of unmanned surface and underwater vessels in a bid to transform the service into a hybrid navy. The Royal Navy conducted a 72-hour proof of concept exercise for its autonomous Rattler unmanned surface vessels (USVs). The exercise...
news.usni.org
....
Companion piece
30 Fast Boats (24m and 60 tonnes
Norway and UK plan joint acquisition of up to 30 new Joint Commando Craft - Naval News
Norway and the United Kingdom are considering a joint acquisition of up to 30 new vessels for coastal operations. The initiative will strengthen the ability to operate together in demanding maritime areas in the North Atlantic and the High North.
www.navalnews.com
....
They may be putting a bit of brake on the big ship side but the are splashing out the cash on the small stuff.
...
Fun bit
Those Rattler trials? They may have been for show. 140 supplied to Ukraine?
Ukraine May Have Secretly Received Up to 140 Syos Marine Drones, Reports Say
New insights reveal Ukraine may be utilizing maritime drones similar to Syos Aerospace’s Rattler, as the UK conducts further testing of the technology.
united24media.com
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And Down-Under
www.navalnews.com
Bluebottle USV to Feature in Australian Navy's Fleet Review for the First Time - Naval News
The Exercise Kakadu Fleet Review 2026 on Saturday, 21st March 2026, will feature an uncrewed surface vessel (USV), the Ocius Bluebottle, reflecting the growing role of autonomous systems for Australia's maritime capability.
www.navalnews.com
Oldgateboatdriver
Army.ca Fixture
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i am sorry, Kirkhill, but I just have to ask: What the hell are you on ... and can I get some???
FSTO
Army.ca Fixture
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It’s about 6 ft long. So what scale would that be?
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That might be the 1/75 scale 'official' models that were contracted for.
