The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[OldSolduer]

Or America might insist on selling late model F 16's if Canada is going to buy a single GE engine fighter.
Hopefully Carney is willing to have that one way adult chat with the Joly's and other military midgets in his cabinet that have convinced themselves that elbows up is a real thing.

Mental midgets you mean

 

[Good2Golf]

Or America might insist on selling late model F 16's if Canada is going to buy a single GE engine fighter.
Hopefully Carney is willing to have that one way adult chat with the Joly's and other military midgets in his cabinet that have convinced themselves that elbows up is a real thing.

Block 70 Vipers do nothing for Canada’s goal of increasing European aerospace capacity. It has SFA to do with ‘Elbows Up.’ It has to do with Canada leveraging unused domestic capacity to reinforce Europe’s maxed-out capacity.

 

[DBNSG]

Block 70 Vipers do nothing for Canada’s goal of increasing European aerospace capacity. It has SFA to do with ‘Elbows Up.’ It has to do with Canada leveraging unused domestic capacity to reinforce Europe’s maxed-out capacity.

Yet the American opinion has not been expressed.
Carney and company are in a pickle as they have generated the elbows up response that has bet the farm on a Fuck Trump move
that will lead to a real hangover and I bet if we buy Gripen they will be given to Ukraine. The Commonwealth training plan 2030.

NORAD and its perceptions of security are a true non negotiable for North American defence but we are convincing ourselves that we have the same latitude and freedom to make dumb defence choices as if the Americans are not looking , interested or concerned but will still do the heavy lifting. We will be noticed in Congress for the wrong reasons and the hard one on one work of relationship building of the last two years by Canadian politicians and business folks might very well be squandered. But hey Elbows up . But a nasty pickle for the Government.
Carney should pull out he 2017 Senate defence recommendations and just buy the 120 Fighters - of one model- and plan for the next generation SHOULD and its a very big Should, the commitment for real independent Canadian defence lasts.
To quote the late Colonel Campbell, Canadian civilians support for defence is a mile wide and an inch deep. it might be over our elbows now but we aren't standing up. YET.

 

[YZT580]

Yet the American opinion has not been expressed.
Carney and company are in a pickle as they have generated the elbows up response that has bet the farm on a Fuck Trump move
that will lead to a real hangover and I bet if we buy Gripen they will be given to Ukraine. The Commonwealth training plan 2030.

NORAD and its perceptions of security are a true non negotiable for North American defence but we are convincing ourselves that we have the same latitude and freedom to make dumb defence choices as if the Americans are not looking , interested or concerned but will still do the heavy lifting. We will be noticed in Congress for the wrong reasons and the hard one on one work of relationship building of the last two years by Canadian politicians and business folks might very well be squandered. But hey Elbows up . But a nasty pickle for the Government.
Carney should pull out he 2017 Senate defence recommendations and just buy the 120 Fighters - of one model- and plan for the next generation SHOULD and its a very big Should, the commitment for real independent Canadian defence lasts.
To quote the late Colonel Campbell, Canadian civilians support for defence is a mile wide and an inch deep. it might be over our elbows now but we aren't standing up. YET.

No he shouldn't. 120 aircraft maybe including at least 60 F35s but we would be foolish to depend upon a single a/c that is a complex as it is. Even the Titanic had lifeboats and it was supposed to be unsinkable.

 

[Furniture]

NORAD and its perceptions of security are a true non negotiable for North American defence but we are convincing ourselves that we have the same latitude and freedom to make dumb defence choices as if the Americans are not looking , interested or concerned but will still do the heavy lifting.

We already have F-35s on the order books, and Gripens are a step up from the Hornets we fly now, so this is a silly point.

We will be noticed in Congress for the wrong reasons and the hard one on one work of relationship building of the last two years by Canadian politicians and business folks might very well be squandered. But hey Elbows up . But a nasty pickle for the Government.

Perhaps your memory is slipping, but the whole "Elbows up" silliness was a direct response to America attacking our industries, and the President threatening our sovereignty. Maybe Congress needs to remember that they have a responsibility to reign-in the president if the president get's out of hand.

Carney should pull out he 2017 Senate defence recommendations and just buy the 120 Fighters - of one model- and plan for the next generation SHOULD and its a very big Should, the commitment for real independent Canadian defence lasts.
To quote the late Colonel Campbell, Canadian civilians support for defence is a mile wide and an inch deep. it might be over our elbows now but we aren't standing up. YET.

We should have at least 120 fighters, but if we keep doing what we have for the last 50 years, we won't. As you have pointed out, Canadian's don't normally care about defence. Canadians don't care about defence, because we buy kit from elsewhere, and use it in far away bases.

If we start making more kit at home, and have well paid jobs in major centres tied to buying more kit, we will get more kit. We have already proven this with GDLS, and the NSS, so I fail to see why the USAF wannabees in this thread can't grasp it.

 

[Halifax Tar]

If we start making more kit at home, and have well paid jobs in major centres tied to buying more kit, we will get more kit. We have already proven this with GDLS, and the NSS, so I fail to see why the USAF wannabees in this thread can't grasp it.

Buying Canadian is a noble idea. Having said that Canadian industry needs to be able to produce good products in reasonable time and for a reasonable price.

I'm fine buying Canadian but they have to beat out the competitors, not just because its Canadian.

 

[OldSolduer]

Buying Canadian is a noble idea. Having said that Canadian industry needs to be able to produce good products in reasonable time and for a reasonable price.

I'm fine buying Canadian but they have to beat out the competitors, not just because its Canadian.

This.

Make a decent product at a decent price and we’ll buy it,
But hose us? Bye bye….

 

[KevinB]

We already have F-35s on the order books, and Gripens are a step up from the Hornets we fly now, so this is a silly point.


Perhaps your memory is slipping, but the whole "Elbows up" silliness was a direct response to America attacking our industries, and the President threatening our sovereignty. Maybe Congress needs to remember that they have a responsibility to reign-in the president if the president get's out of hand.



We should have at least 120 fighters, but if we keep doing what we have for the last 50 years, we won't. As you have pointed out, Canadian's don't normally care about defence. Canadians don't care about defence, because we buy kit from elsewhere, and use it in far away bases.

If we start making more kit at home, and have well paid jobs in major centres tied to buying more kit, we will get more kit. We have already proven this with GDLS, and the NSS, so I fail to see why the USAF wannabees in this thread can't grasp it.

GDLS, as yes another Canadian subsidiary of a US Defense giant.

Not sure that I’d consider that a flex.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Buying Canadian is a noble idea. Having said that Canadian industry needs to be able to produce good products in reasonable time and for a reasonable price.

I'm fine buying Canadian but they have to beat out the competitors, not just because its Canadian.

But why is this your condition for planes but not for warships?

To me the approach is one and the same - creating/maintaining home grown abilities.

Looking towards only the 6th gen fighter force, we need to partner with a consortium that provides the opportunity for Canada to grow its aerospace sector as much as possible - to expand our avionics, IP generating abilities, weapon systems, etc, to allow this to occur.

Today we produce 3% of the overall value of a F35. In the future, for a 6th gen fighter, I want to see that tripled to 9% as the bottom, the floor and to grow it beyond that floor - 15-18%, could that be ideal? What about 12-14%? What about 20-22%?

 

[Halifax Tar]

But why is this your condition for planes but not for warships?

Where did you come up with that ?

To me the approach is one and the same - creating/maintaining home grown abilities.

Looking towards only the 6th gen fighter force, we need to partner with a consortium that provides the opportunity for Canada to grow its aerospace sector as much as possible - to expand our avionics, IP generating abilities, weapon systems, etc, to allow this to occur.

Today we produce 3% of the overall value of a F35. In the future, for a 6th gen fighter, I want to see that tripled to 9% as the bottom, the floor and to grow it beyond that floor - 15-18%, could that be ideal? What about 12-14%? What about 20-22%?

Canadian companies should be expected to deliver quality, on time and budget. If they cant we should go elsewhere.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Where did you come up with that ?

Sorry if I got that wrong. I saw the reference to 'cost' (reasonable price) and made the assumption that if a plane (or components) can't be made at a reasonable price that we shouldn't bother with it.

I think that its safe to say that none of the NSS ships are coming in at a 'reasonable' price. Especially true when you add in all the 'loans' that have been provided to them to upgrade their facilities.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Sorry if I got that wrong. I saw the reference to 'cost' (reasonable price) and made the assumption that if a plane (or components) can't be made at a reasonable price that we shouldn't bother with it.

I think that its safe to say that none of the NSS ships are coming in at a 'reasonable' price. Especially true when you add in all the 'loans' that have been provided to them to upgrade their facilities.

I would have sent the NSS to SK if it was up to me.

I've just accepted the fate now.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I would have sent the NSS to SK if it was up to me.

Well, we'd sure have alot more ships available by now!

 

[Furniture]

Buying Canadian is a noble idea. Having said that Canadian industry needs to be able to produce good products in reasonable time and for a reasonable price.

I'm fine buying Canadian but they have to beat out the competitors, not just because its Canadian.

The problem with that approach is, because we have spent so long just being a buyer, our industries need to be rebuilt. That means we might need to prioritize Canadian kit, even if it isn't the best.

We need defence industries, because when the shooting starts and we need to replace kit, if we dont make it, we will be at the back of the line for it.

 

[Furniture]

GDLS, as yes another Canadian subsidiary of a US Defense giant.

Not sure that I’d consider that a flex.

It wasn't intended as a flex, it was simply highlighting that the army keeps getting LAVs because we make them.

If the CAF wants to have kit updated at a regular pace, then selecting kit made in Canada is the smart choice.

If all the money and jobs go to foreign countries, Canadians will be less inclined to want to spend the money.

 

[OldSolduer]

It wasn't intended as a flex, it was simply highlighting that the army keeps getting LAVs because we make them.

If the CAF wants to have kit updated at a regular pace, then selecting kit made in Canada is the smart choice.

If all the money and jobs go to foreign countries, Canadians will be less inclined to want to spend the money.

I agree - we need an industrial base and the requisite labor to make it so