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Active Shooter / Hostile Event ( ASHE ) prevention / response

The Quebec Green Party Leader waded in on Social Media on the actions of the female officer. He got slapped hard. He said she should have been better trained.
I would hazard to guess that you'd need JTF2 level training and practice to NOT react like she did to the bystander. Very tragic and I hope she gets all the counselling required (which I doubt will be enough).
you do enough HRT training and you’ll see a dove or a bystander catch one….under a lot less pressure than this.

I feel for her. Because there is lots of good stuff there.

In tactics we kinda talk about the idea of negative outcome bias where because at the end of the day the incident is horrific that it means we did something wrong- this is a human outcome that (in a grand totality-30 000 ft perspective) would have been orders of magnitude worse if they didn’t stop it when they did.

This is a real and honest result of an active shooter event.
 
you do enough HRT training and you’ll see a dove or a bystander catch one….under a lot less pressure than this.

It's funny reading the usual expert social media commentary about training and tactics from peoples chairs. I can hold my own running around playing gunfighter weenie and the first thing I thought when I seen the video was oh damn she probably shot that guy. Second thing was thinking damn I probably would have shot him too.

The civilian popping around the corner like that catching her off guard is like one of those annoying scenarios in CQB where the unarmed person jumps out to scare someone on purpose. It's just tragically perfect timing.
 
It's funny reading the usual expert social media commentary about training and tactics from peoples chairs. I can hold my own running around playing gunfighter weenie and the first thing I thought when I seen the video was oh damn she probably shot that guy. Second thing was thinking damn I probably would have shot him too.

The civilian popping around the corner like that catching her off guard is like one of those annoying scenarios in CQB where the unarmed person jumps out to scare someone on purpose. It's just tragically perfect timing.
Mm hm. that about aligns with my thinking.
 
It's funny reading the usual expert social media commentary about training and tactics from peoples chairs. I can hold my own running around playing gunfighter weenie and the first thing I thought when I seen the video was oh damn she probably shot that guy. Second thing was thinking damn I probably would have shot him too.

The civilian popping around the corner like that catching her off guard is like one of those annoying scenarios in CQB where the unarmed person jumps out to scare someone on purpose. It's just tragically perfect timing.
We run a lot of scenario based training where I work. Even with Tier 1 SOF level training and preparation (which most LEAs cannot attain), we have a limited amount of control over what we do, and far less over what the badger or dove does in response to our actions. There will always be someone out there. good or bad, that hands you a "hold my beer and watch this" moment.
 
We run a lot of scenario based training where I work. Even with Tier 1 SOF level training and preparation (which most LEAs cannot attain), we have a limited amount of control over what we do, and far less over what the badger or dove does in response to our actions. There will always be someone out there. good or bad, that hands you a "hold my beer and watch this" moment.
And no matter how realistic you can make a training scenario, there is a piece of every participant's mind that knows it is training - they're not going to die.
 
Not a perfect fit here, but now, more worries?
 
Not a perfect fit here, but now, more worries?

Is this insinuating some sort of massed social disorder ?
 
Is this insinuating some sort of massed social disorder ?
I don't think I'd guess that far down the spectrum. I have zero inside knowledge, but these days, it doesn't surprise me that any significant find in one part of the country causes folks in the same business to be alert elsewhere - especially with what looks like a rash of cops being killed on duty over the past couple of months.
 
I’ve gotta be careful not to talk out of school here, but I’m pretty confident this is just the media catching up to the ‘same day’ officer safety bulletins around the Montreal shooting, when the scope of what was going on still wasn’t clear.

It’s not unusual when something major is happening for there to be pretty widely disseminated safety bulletins if the scope of a threat is still being figured out.
 
I’ve gotta be careful not to talk out of school here, but I’m pretty confident this is just the media catching up to the ‘same day’ officer safety bulletins around the Montreal shooting, when the scope of what was going on still wasn’t clear.
That makes sense coming from media trying to "feed the 24 hour goat" and latching onto a new angle to maintain story momentum.
 
I’ve gotta be careful not to talk out of school here, but I’m pretty confident this is just the media catching up to the ‘same day’ officer safety bulletins around the Montreal shooting, when the scope of what was going on still wasn’t clear.

It’s not unusual when something major is happening for there to be pretty widely disseminated safety bulletins if the scope of a threat is still being figured out.
100% brihard. That’s my take as well- there’s been several of these messages local and divisional.
 
Fixed it for you.

FBI HRT pales in comparison to SMU’s, and in Canada the role was given to DHTC for a reason.
SMU="stands for Special Mission Unit, a designation for the United States military's most highly secretive and elite special operations forces, often referred to as Tier 1 units."
 
Unfortunately what is pretty certain from the video is that the female officer shot the civilian. I’m sure there will be alot of discussion revolving around her training, her experience and her situational awareness. Quite frankly from what I saw, I can’t blame her….it appears to be a confluence of bad luck, wrong place wrong time during a horrific situation IMHO.

Agreed, we have a civilian who comes from the same direction as the shooter just went, approach the officer from her blind spot, then somehow got her attention pretty much right up at her. Im sure many of us would of reacted the same. Logic would dictate not hanging around as a civilian in a active shooter situation.

I’d suggest it’s probably about half the population that would have done the same thing if that is the case. You can’t train that out of people. No matter what people think their own performance would be. Most people are freezers or flinchers under that stress.

It was too fast and too much stress too close. Another five or ten seconds and she may have had some better awareness- but it’s hard to say.

So, I don’t feel able or equipped to pass judgment on her. I won’t.

Here’s what I can see about how it went down, and then some considerations they come to mind. I’m doing this as dispassionately and objectively as I can, I’ll just ask for a bit of understanding that I’m doing this by going frame by frame of a cop getting murdered and J believe another grievously wounded, and a civilian killed.

This looks like it took place at 6895 Boulevard de Décarie, at the south corner of the building at the intersection of Décarie and Av. de Courtrai. Everything is ‘angled’ on a map; Décarie runs northwest to southeast; Courtrai perpendicular to that.

It’s a very new development; Décarie is a wide boulevard, de Courtrai is a mixed use urban canyon with ground level storefronts and many stories of offices, hotels etc stacked above. At street level there are large columns and planters that would serve as cover, there are cars and pedestrians, and all the movement that comes with that.


The two officers appear to have been first on scene responding to a gun call. They have pistols and their soft vests. I see no long guns or hard plates. I don’t know what their training or equipment is.

As the most graphic videos open, the officers appear to be behind the northwest face of a planter/column supporting the building facade. This would be hard cover for south and east, but from the northeast they were in enfilade. As best as I can tell they were moving northeast to where the incident was probably initially reported.

The shooter was to their east maybe 50-100m. They likely did not have line of sight. I suspect he didn’t either. He was running west and ended up in the same patch of space they were advancing in. Effectively a ‘meeting engagement’. At a distance of 10-15m he saw them and opened fire with what looks like an SKS, and he moved to cover as he engaged. They were in enfilade to him. They have to retreat a couple meters to gain cover. They appear to have both scrambled back to cover. The male officer was hit, I think catastrophically. He crawled a few meters farther south from his hover and I believe died there. It looks like he bled out very quickly. As this happened I believe the civilian was within a few meters of the officer. Going frame by frame I can only guess he was either concealed from view behind the pillar, or possibly he emerged from a store entrance during these seconds.

I don’t know if the female officer was hit at that point or if either officer fired back. She ended up behind cover on the southwest facing of the planter. The threat at this point was northeast within ten meters. She had just been shot at with a long gun, probably for the first time in her life. The noise in that space would have been enormous. Probably she’s never fired pistol without ear protection before either. She likely saw the shooter, very close and advancing in her direction. She saw her partner shot and, though she likely didn’t know yet, killed. She likely did not see the shooter duck back behind cover himself. Her last view was probably him moving on her shooting. Very likely she didn’t get a particularly good view of the shooter; given the male officer took rounds she was probably ‘second in the stack’.

Within a second or two of this, as she has a knee behind cover, the civilian advances from exactly the direction of the shooter, rounding the corner in tight basically right on top of her. The civilian didn’t proceed past her; he looks to have paused and turned to face her at a distance of about a foot (although he was probably similarly moving to cover). He was standing adjacent to and above her, facing her way. At that point in a fraction of a second it looks like she made a decision to shoot and did so. However I cannot rule out that the civilian was shot by the shooter. The shooter could similarly have emerged from cover, seen a male standing in dark clothing ten meters away, and shot. Forensic examination will easily determine that.

She then moved south, east, and ran northeast, possibly either to new cover or possibly to try to flank the shooter in turn. She would likely not have been able to see that in that time the shooter himself was moving southwest to flank her in her cover. A couple seconds later the shooter emerged exactly where it appears she had just shot the civilian. He was gun up and specifically hunting her and I believe he saw her moving from her cover-her heel was visible as he rounded the corner.

View attachment 100952

The shooter then looks to aim in the direction she fled and fires four rounds, probably at her back. In that time she can’t have made it more than a couple tens of meters. I don’t know if she’s the seriously wounded officer but I suspect she is.

After he fires four rounds at her, someone engages him with some FANTASTIC disciplined fire. 13 rounds in a steady, calm cadence, I suspect someone had him at quite a distance and was ‘shooting for score’. He did not appear to return fire. At some point someone made those shots count and the shooter fell there. All three deceased were within meters of each other.

The officer that appears to have shot a civilian? If in fact she did, I can’t say with all my training and experience that in that moment and in those circumstances I might not have perceived a threat and engaged too. I like to hope I wouldn’t have, but I don’t know. She was on the losing side of a two way range, pistol versus rifle, probably her first, and it wasn’t an incidental encounter- he was hunting police and it seems possible this was a contrived ambush. Worst case scenario for all the psychology and physiology of a fight stuff.

As a firearms instructor and active shooter instructor, had this been a training scenario there’s lots that could be dispassionately critiqued… But I can’t and won’t chirp from the cheap seats on a real event and not knowing her training and experience. And, most critically, we don’t have her own articulation of what she saw, heard, perceived, thought, feared, decided and did.

A terrible, terrible event. I hope she can recover both physically and mentally from this, and my thoughts are with the families of all involved.

Excellent analysis, Brihard.

Having a similar firearms training background as you, I would have reached a similar conclusion. In my opinion, this was an ambush. What remains to be seen is was it a deliberate or snap ambush. The manifesto could be a red herring.

Just tagged the last few participants in this particular sidebar. La Presse is now reporting that forensic examination has confirmed the civilian was not shot by the SPVM officer. He was hit by at least two bullets from the shooter. So she did not engage the civilian.

 
Bright news in a dark story. Unfortunately won’t replace the narrative that is out there and I have also fed into that narrative by speaking before we had the facts- even if it was to be understanding.
 
Bright news in a dark story. Unfortunately won’t replace the narrative that is out there and I have also fed into that narrative by speaking before we had the facts- even if it was to be understanding.
I think it was reasonable for all of us to see that video and fear/suspect the worst case. On the flip side, it would have been unreasonable and would simply have come across as professionally defensive to simply deny the distinct possibility.

As you say, bright news in a dark story. I hope the officer’s recovering ok.
 
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