3 VP CO & RSM relieved of duty

[lenaitch]

At Christmas, we used to take Sunnybrook war vets for an after dark bus tour to see the bright lights.

If they wanted to bring "Holy Water" along for the ride ...

And don't even think of telling them to extinguish their cigarettes. < lol emoji

It was a different time.

It might be more of a 'different people' than different time. My father-in-law was in the Vets wing at Sunnybrook until a few years ago. Things like booze and on-property smoking (designated areas, but lots of them) were still a thing, mostly in acknowledgement of their service.

 

[captloadie]

It should also be remembered that this may have been the straw that broke the camel's back. On the surface, being removed from Command one week before the change of command parade seems like odd timing. If the alleged drinking issue was the only black mark against the Comd Team over three years, you'd think they would have found a different way to handle this lack of judgement, while still ensuring the troops were aware that action was being taken.

 

[daftandbarmy]

It should also be remembered that this may have been the straw that broke the camels back. On the surface, being removed from Command one week before the change of command parade seems like odd timing. If the alleged drinking issue was the only black mark against the Comd Team over three years, you'd think they would have found a different way to handle this lack of judgement, while still ensuring the troops were aware that action was being taken.

I saw that movie!

 

[mariomike]

It might be more of a 'different people' than different time. My father-in-law was in the Vets wing at Sunnybrook until a few years ago. Things like booze and on-property smoking (designated areas, but lots of them) were still a thing, mostly in acknowledgement of their service.

I only did it once. The Vets were pretty lively . And , as we soon found out , rather high maintenance.

Soon as we pulled away from K Wing , they said , "Take us to Cheaters!"

It was only ten minutes away, and they seemed familiar with the joint.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I only did it once. The Vets were pretty lively . And , as we soon found out , rather high maintenance.

Soon as we pulled away from K Wing , they said , "Take us to Cheaters!"

It was only ten minutes away, and they seemed familiar with the joint.

We're only on this earth once. Make the most of it, how ever that looks to you.

 

[mariomike]

We're only on this earth once. Make the most of it, how ever that looks to you .

Thanks for the scolding.

Not judging what people want.

As far as accommodating them , we would have done so. Gladly.

But, we were On-Duty, operating a Departmental bus , with a K-Wing staff member on board.

This wasn't a hired limo.

She said no dice to Cheaters.

If you want call us wet blankets for following her instructions , that's ok with me.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Thanks for the scolding.

Not judging what people want.

As far as accommodating them , we would have done so. Gladly.

But, we were On-Duty, operating a Departmental bus , with a K-Wing staff member on board.

This wasn't a hired limo.

She said no dice to Cheaters.

If you want call us wet blankets for following her instructions , that's ok with me.

Take a calm down pill.

I wasn't scolding you. I was empathizing with some old vets who want to live it up one last time.

And good on your organization for facilitating.

 

[Grunt_031]

There was a rumour they had a beer in a bus and got ratted out

Probably the bus driver. The bus and driver did not belong to the unit, and alcohol was not permitted on the bus. They were simply carrying out their duty by reporting any breaches of the Standing Orders, regardless of rank. Several senior personnel have been disciplined over the years for violating regulations involving alcohol. Just ask the Commanding Officer of 1 PPCLI in Kosovo.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Former CF legal beagle wades in ....

Kabuki Discipline

Kabuki Discipline 24 June 2026 Yesterday, Murray Brewster, the widely respected Defence and Security reporter for the CBC, published a digital report regarding the “temporary” removal from command (and appointment) of the commanding officer (CO) and Regimental Sergeant-Major (RSM) of 3rd...

roryfowlerlaw.com

Archived here.

 

[lenaitch]

I only did it once. The Vets were pretty lively . And , as we soon found out , rather high maintenance.

Soon as we pulled away from K Wing , they said , "Take us to Cheaters!"

It was only ten minutes away, and they seemed familiar with the joint.

That was likely back when they were young enough to be somewhat 'frisky'. The average age now is around 95 and there are something like 35 who are over 100.

 

[mariomike]

That was likely back when they were young enough to be somewhat 'frisky'.

They were a lot younger than I am now ! Darn tootin' they were frisky.

If that matron hadn't been on board, we would have done anything for them.

Looking back , I regret that we didn't.

 

[KevinB]

Former CF legal beagle wades in ....

Kabuki Discipline

Kabuki Discipline 24 June 2026 Yesterday, Murray Brewster, the widely respected Defence and Security reporter for the CBC, published a digital report regarding the “temporary” removal from command (and appointment) of the commanding officer (CO) and Regimental Sergeant-Major (RSM) of 3rd...

roryfowlerlaw.com

Archived here.

So I was this days old when I realized that Rory Fowler was, Captain Fowler PPCLI and known to/by me at that time.

 

[OldSolduer]

Probably the bus driver. The bus and driver did not belong to the unit, and alcohol was not permitted on the bus. They were simply carrying out their duty by reporting any breaches of the Standing Orders, regardless of rank. Several senior personnel have been disciplined over the years for violating regulations involving alcohol. Just ask the Commanding Officer of 1 PPCLI in Kosovo.

Steve Bryan? I have a few tales about him

 

[The Bread Guy]

So I was this days old when I realized that Rory Fowler was, Captain Fowler PPCLI and known to/by me at that time.

CF's a bit of a small world, I'm told

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Former CF legal beagle wades in ....

Kabuki Discipline

Kabuki Discipline 24 June 2026 Yesterday, Murray Brewster, the widely respected Defence and Security reporter for the CBC, published a digital report regarding the “temporary” removal from command (and appointment) of the commanding officer (CO) and Regimental Sergeant-Major (RSM) of 3rd...

roryfowlerlaw.com

Archived here.

The problem with Rory’s take is that we now literally have the worst of all worlds.

CO’s must maintain good order and discipline. Says so, right in the Commissioning Scroll.

The Summary hearing system is currently woefully inadequate for that task. And the JAG branch has once again complicated what was supposed to be a quick and easy disciplinary process and turned it into a justice system.

Court Martial’s take too long to come to trial and are more about justice than discipline.

Remedial Measures are relatively easy, but getting DMCA to actually release a shitbird takes years of shitty behaviour and (often) hundreds of pages of documentation.

If COs, other Officers, or NCOs actually try to enforce discipline, they will almost certainly face retaliation in the form of a no limits, no consequence harassment and grievance complaint system that is routinely weaponized against unit leadership.

So Rory, what is your solution?

 

[Good2Golf]

SKT, I found that DAID 5019 was my go to. It’s on their file, supports follow-on action if needed, otherwise the ineffectuality of the ST/MC mash was way more squeeze than the juice it made. Get a few folks out on remedial measures and the word gets out…slow and by the book is eventually going to culminate to the benefit of the organization…and the member should they chose to be better…

 

[SeaKingTacco]

SKT, I found that DAID 5019 was my go to. It’s on their file, supports follow-on action if needed, otherwise the ineffectuality of the ST/MC mash was way more squeeze than the juice it made. Get a few folks out on remedial measures and the word gets out…slow and by the book is eventually going to culminate to the benefit of the organization…and the member should they chose to be better…

And I also used DAOD 5019.

Rory’s point is that the CAF is using it instead of discipline.

My counter to Rory is that since Summary Trials were turned into Summary Hearings, 5019 is about the only useful tool left for COs.

And counter to his point (since, undoubtedly, all of his clients are innocent) Remedial Measures are about correcting behaviour. All of the ones I see have good plans to help members overcome their shortcomings. A lot people today don’t like being told that they don’t meet the standard and that they need to improve.

 

[daftandbarmy]

And I also used DAOD 5019.

Rory’s point is that the CAF is using it instead of discipline.

My counter to Rory is that since Summary Trials were turned into Summary Hearings, 5019 is about the only useful tool left for COs.

And counter to his point (since, undoubtedly, all of his clients are innocent) Remedial Measures are about correcting behaviour. All of the ones I see have good plans to help members overcome their shortcomings. A lot people today don’t like being told that they don’t meet the standard and that they need to improve.

Out of curiosity... about how many LCols and CWOs are 'banged up' under that one these days?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Out of curiosity... about how many LCols and CWOs are 'banged up' under that one these days?

How do you mean?

 

[daftandbarmy]

How do you mean?

I mean is it really uncommon to see people at that level on remedial measures?

I'm guessing yes, and that it's not great for someone's career, but really have no idea.