New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[lenaitch]

But too often, over my career, and in my life, the cry has gone out: "Reduce Costs!"
Never "Raise revenues!"
And never, ever "Do things differently". Because change implies risk.

That's only when accountants ('beancounters') are in positions of power or decision-making. Otherwise, the profession reports on the outcomes of decisions made by others.

 

[Nvlgzr]

Where computers conflict with ships....

Shipyards compete with AI for engines - Splash247

A familiar constraint from shipping’s last great shipbuilding boom is beginning to reappear: yards are short of engines. Splash understands a lack of available main engines is now curbing shipyard output at the margin, echoing conditions last seen during the 2007 ordering frenzy. The pressure is...

splash247.com

Almost every jurisdiction in the world now finds itself scrounging for electricity to feed Data Centers that are deemed essential to modern life.
This is driving up the price of electricity and driving down its availability if not its supply.
This is, in turn, is driving Data Centers to places where they can find cheap energy, cheap fuel, like Alberta, where they can generate their own electricity without disrupting the local grid.

But even in Alberta there is concern that the demand for fuel in the form of natural gas will be so great that it will drive that price up to world standards.

And the conversion of that energy to electricity happens with internal combustion engines.

The same ones needed to power ships.

At least until the ships and data centers start competing for nuclear reactors.

3rd option: megawatt scale fuel cells operating on natural gas. As with internal combustion engines, carbon capture will need to be a consideration of NG fuelled projects.
4th option: NG fueled gas turbines driving generators ie. GE-7FA, MT30. See Elon Musk’s Colossus data centres: Elon Musk’s xAI datacenter generating extra electricity illegally, regulator rules

 

[Kirkhill]

That's only when accountants ('beancounters') are in positions of power or decision-making. Otherwise, the profession reports on the outcomes of decisions made by others.

You are right.

My sense of the problem is that when a company reaches the mature stage where it is no longer growing but hasn't started dying boards often turn to accountants to manage the company as if the revenue stream will continue unchanged and manage itself, failing to recognize that successful companies attract competitors and markets become saturated.

Truly successful companies, like truly succesful armies, have to keep taking risks and looking for new avenues to exploit.

 

[Kirkhill]

3rd option: megawatt scale fuel cells operating on natural gas. As with internal combustion engines, carbon capture will need to be a consideration of NG fuelled projects.
4th option: NG fueled gas turbines driving generators ie. GE-7FA, MT30. See Elon Musk’s Colossus data centres: Elon Musk’s xAI datacenter generating extra electricity illegally, regulator rules

I look forwards to seeing all these alternative powerplants.

Another factor is managing the cooling load.

That opens up the option of Tri-Generation Power plants with the heat from the power generation (fuel cell, turbine or ICE), being used to drive absorption chillers and the waste used to serve the local community.

 

[YZT580]

You are right.

My sense of the problem is that when a company reaches the mature stage where it is no longer growing but hasn't started dying boards often turn to accountants to manage the company as if the revenue stream will continue unchanged and manage itself, failing to recognize that successful companies attract competitors and markets become saturated.

Truly successful companies, like truly succesful armies, have to keep taking risks and looking for new avenues to exploit.

example: Boeing

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I have seen some poor bridge setups in my time, often a afterthought it seems for such a vital area.

- Cyprus Shipping News

Large screens, advanced control systems and increasing automation are shaping modern ship bridges. But new technology does not necessarily make […]

cyprusshippingnews.com

 

[Kirkhill]

USN hires a civilian Vessel Construction Manager as prime contractor for the new LSMs the Marines wanted.
The Marines have been arguing for years they wanted a cheap, simple, civilian platform for island-hopping in the Pacific.
The Navy insisted on the same standards applied to the LCS, the Zumwalts and the Constellations.

'Innovative shift': Navy bets $2.2 billion on new vessel construction manager strategy for LSM - Breaking Defense

The Navy said that the contract award seeks to "maximize commercial practices to accelerate delivery" of the vessels.

breakingdefense.com

The Navy has tapped maritime company TOTE Services to serve as the vessel construction manager (VCM) for the Landing Ship Medium (LSM) program.

The Navy announced the $2.2 billion contract award on Monday, and said it aims to “maximize commercial practices to accelerate delivery, improve cost discipline, and expand the U.S. shipbuilding industrial base,” according to a service news release.

While the VCM model is common in commercial shipbuilding, it is a departure from the Navy’s status quo, with TOTE serving as the service’s first VCM. The VCM has the prime contract, and as a result, has direct contractual oversight of construction and delivery for the LSM, the Navy said Monday.

“The VCM strategy is an innovative shift in Navy shipbuilding. We are changing the way we do business, and leveraging commercial best practices to improve cost, schedule, and performance,” Will Mahan, who is performing the duties of assistant secretary of the Navy for research, development and acquisition, said in a statement on Monday.

....

Something of a developing theme across NATO:

Civilian where possible.
Military where necessary.

 

[Halifax Tar]

USN hires a civilian Vessel Construction Manager as prime contractor for the new LSMs the Marines wanted.
The Marines have been arguing for years they wanted a cheap, simple, civilian platform for island-hopping in the Pacific.
The Navy insisted on the same standards applied to the LCS, the Zumwalts and the Constellations.

'Innovative shift': Navy bets $2.2 billion on new vessel construction manager strategy for LSM - Breaking Defense

The Navy said that the contract award seeks to "maximize commercial practices to accelerate delivery" of the vessels.

breakingdefense.com

The Navy has tapped maritime company TOTE Services to serve as the vessel construction manager (VCM) for the Landing Ship Medium (LSM) program.

The Navy announced the $2.2 billion contract award on Monday, and said it aims to “maximize commercial practices to accelerate delivery, improve cost discipline, and expand the U.S. shipbuilding industrial base,” according to a service news release.

While the VCM model is common in commercial shipbuilding, it is a departure from the Navy’s status quo, with TOTE serving as the service’s first VCM. The VCM has the prime contract, and as a result, has direct contractual oversight of construction and delivery for the LSM, the Navy said Monday.

“The VCM strategy is an innovative shift in Navy shipbuilding. We are changing the way we do business, and leveraging commercial best practices to improve cost, schedule, and performance,” Will Mahan, who is performing the duties of assistant secretary of the Navy for research, development and acquisition, said in a statement on Monday.

....

Something of a developing theme across NATO:

Civilian where possible.
Military where necessary.

There is a lesson from the Flower class that came from a civilian whaler, the Southern Pride.

 

[Kirkhill]

If I understand correctly

Southern Pride to Channel Patrol Boats
Channel Patrol Boats pressed to blue water escorts as Flower Corvettes
Flower Corvettes built in Canada to supply blue water escorts from the west.
Corvettes begat Twin Screw Corvettes
TwinScrew Corvettes redesignated Frigates
RCN becomes a Frigate navy
RCN buys the Type 26 Frigate design and reclassifies it as a Destroyer.

There is a direct line connecting the RCDs to the commercial vessel Southern Pride.

.....

HMCS Sackville 62.5m, 950 tonnes, 85 Crew, 3500 NM @12 kts, 16 kts max
Saronic MUSV 55m, <500 tonnes, 0 Crew, 5400 NM @12 kts, 25 kts max

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Corvettes went to the Castle Class. I will argue the River Class frigates of WWII, were a clean sheet design to incorporate the best features of the Corvettes and Destroyers, while still being easier and faster to build than Destroyers.

 

[Kirkhill]

Corvettes went to the Castle Class. I will argue the River Class frigates of WWII, were a clean sheet design to incorporate the best features of the Corvettes and Destroyers, while still being easier and faster to build than Destroyers.

Are we talking hull form or role?

The whalers were pressed into bluw water escort service because they were needed and available. A more seaworthy, but cheap and fast, escort was needed which resulted in the "twin screw corvette" aka the frigate.

Key design specs: cheap and fast to build and good enough. Bonus that they could be crewed by farm boys from the prairies with a day and a half of training.

 

[Kirkhill]

"A crewed warship with capabilities similar to the Saronic Marauder (≈180 ft / 55 m, up to 150 metric tons payload in containers, long range, 25+ knots) would likely cost significantly more than the unmanned version—roughly in the $50–200+ million range per ship, depending on exact configuration, armament, sensors, and survivability features."

Additional info from the Saronic Marauder article.

...

The Flowers and the launches (MLs/MTBs/MGBs/PTs) were all built with crew safety and comfort decidedly secondary.

To wit: rolling a dustbin of high explosives off the stern of your boat and hoping your engines could drive into the waves far enough so it didn't detonate under you.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Are we talking hull form or role?

From my reading both. The Corvettes had the legs to stick with a convoy, but did not have the speed to catch up with it, if they detached from it. The Corvettes were wet and miserable to live and fight from. Destroyers were used to go down a HDF bearing line and force the uboat under and hold them there, then quickly rejoin the convoy, However the Destroyers would run out of fuel and have to depart from the screen and head home to refuel. The Corvettes really went through 2 major design changes, with the extended foscle improving their sea keeping and wetness and the Castle Class being a lessons learned, however being bigger, but still having the same engines, boilers and prop, they were harder to handle for docking.

The Frigate was a plan to build basically a small, economical Sloop, and really the "parent" was the Black Swan Class Sloops.

 

[Furniture]

"A crewed warship with capabilities similar to the Saronic Marauder (≈180 ft / 55 m, up to 150 metric tons payload in containers, long range, 25+ knots) would likely cost significantly more than the unmanned version—roughly in the $50–200+ million range per ship, depending on exact configuration, armament, sensors, and survivability features."

A crewed warship in the same size range can also do many more things... Short of a full scale shooting war, a bunch of autonomous "warships" sailing in circles is a massive waste of money, because they can do only one job.

Obviously the snake-oil salesmen working for the companies pushing them will not talk about the fact the most warships spend their entire career not shooting at anything, and just emphasize the one small domain where their product is better.

 

[Kirkhill]

A crewed warship in the same size range can also do many more things... Short of a full scale shooting war, a bunch of autonomous "warships" sailing in circles is a massive waste of money, because they can do only one job.

Obviously the snake-oil salesmen working for the companies pushing them will not talk about the fact the most warships spend their entire career not shooting at anything, and just emphasize the one small domain where their product is better.

And it doesn't take much of a crew to park a hull at a position for 30 days and have it relay the data gathered by its sensors back to the Recognized Maritime Picture.

Nor do you have to worry about crew getting in the way of the launch of missiles, torpedoes, and UxVs by means of Cooperative Engagement.

It isn't snake oil salesmen pushing them. It is Admirals pushing to buy them.

The argument was that the Ukrainian experience didn't translate to the high seas because the Black Sea was a pond.

UxVs are now being used in the Baltic, the Gulf of Arabia, the Gulf of Mexico, off Australia and in the North Atlantic. Sizes range from 1 m to 50 m. with 5 to 20 m being very popular.

The key issue is that the big platforms are not there to occasionally deploy missiles, as you rightly note, they are there to regularly and repeatedly deploy UxVs for ISR purposes.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

And it doesn't take much of a crew to park a hull at a position for 30 days and have it relay the data gathered by its sensors back to the Recognized Maritime Picture.

A platform parked in a single position does not contribute much to the Recognized Maritime picture. Nor does a platform incapable of interaction with the people on the vessels being intercepted/recorded to the picture.

 

[Kirkhill]

A platform parked in a single position does not contribute much to the Recognized Maritime picture. Nor does a platform incapable of interaction with the people on the vessels being intercepted/recorded to the picture.

And if you prefer, you can have the launch platform for the UAV navigate from point to point in a defined patrol zone.

 

[Furniture]

And it doesn't take much of a crew to park a hull at a position for 30 days and have it relay the data gathered by its sensors back to the Recognized Maritime Picture.

Ok, two tasks... Shooting, and watching. That leaves out a lot of other things that crewed ships do regularly.

Nor do you have to worry about crew getting in the way of the launch of missiles, torpedoes, and UxVs by means of Cooperative Engagement.

Do you think the crew of an RCD will "get in the way" of a cooperative engagement launch? You know that there are more steps to it than just seeing a target and hitting a button right? Even an uncrewed vessel will need to go through checks and prepare to launch... something a crewed ship can do more reliably, because there are people there to fix faults if they arise(and they do).

The argument was that the Ukrainian experience didn't translate to the high seas because the Black Sea was a pond.

UxVs are now being used in the Baltic, the Gulf of Arabia, the Gulf of Mexico, off Australia and in the North Atlantic. Sizes range from 1 m to 50 m. with 5 to 20 m being very popular.

Most of the uses are still pretty much "pond" waters, particularly when you can run back to port when the weather turns average, like the North Atlantic usage envisioned.

The key issue is that the big platforms are not there to occasionally deploy missiles, as you rightly note, they are there to regularly and repeatedly deploy UxVs for ISR purposes.

Except, they less efficient at it because they can't fix faults in the UXVs, so if one or both of the platforms have a minor issue, the both are useless. A crewed vessel can fix faults in the UXV launch system, as well as fix faults in the UXV itself...

As I have said multiple times before, I am not opposed to uncrewed systems. I am simply opposed to the narrative they they are anywhere near close to a 1-1 or 10-1 replacement for crewed systems. Like missiles, bombers, tanks, etc., they have their place in war. I just think the hype around them is writing cheques that they systems themselves can't cash, and if we buy into the hype we will find ourselves lacking the tools we need to operate in the real world.