Canada moves to 2% GDP end of FY25/26 - PMMC

[Halifax Tar]

Marksmanship is like fitness.

The CAF provides the bare minimum.

It's up to you to be better.

 

[ytz]

Marksmanship is like fitness.

The CAF provides the bare minimum.

It's up to you to be better.

I don't disagree. But there's real issues with letting several hundred thousand people randomly show up to DND facilities armed. I can't think of anybody in NATO doing this. Not even the Swiss who let people keep their weapons at home do this.

Also, marksmanship is only part of the training. Being proficient on the same weapon(s) and the same TTPs as everybody else is what separates a gun club from a military force. Unless we're creating training and licensing programs so that these places can run PWT, it's less training that sponsoring a hobby.

 

[Kirkhill]

I the CAF started putting military expectations on CIC officers, that number would likely drop to 750 that were both willing and able to meet the expectations. We'd likely do better just recruiting off the street from civilian supervisors and managers that like guns...

I accept that.

But is the CAF getting value for money out of the existing CIC? Or should the budget be reallocated to a new tasking.

 

[Kirkhill]

Hopefully those 300k have actual skills and don't just think of the CAF as a free gun club....

But given that it's a pain in the ass for the average CAF member not in an operational unit to get a range day, spending hundreds of millions for a glorified gun club seems like a misplaced priority. Also, doesn't remove the security risk of random people walking on to a base with firearms.

If we're talking about getting them doing their annual qual like everybody else? Sure...... But that's not a BYOG fun day. It's organized training.

I agree.

What draws would you recommend to bring in 300 000 volunteers?

 

[ytz]

I accept that.

But is the CAF getting value for money out of the existing CIC? Or should the budget be reallocated to a new tasking.

Cadets is probably the most effective recruiting and PR campaign the CAF has. Nothing promotes a desire to join and a stronger affinity for the CAF among civilians than Cadets. It definitely does more than say the Snowbirds.

 

[Furniture]

I accept that.

But is the CAF getting value for money out of the existing CIC? Or should the budget be reallocated to a new tasking.

The cadet programme exists to generate interest in the CAF, and develop the leaders of tomorrow. So yes, the cost is worth it.

Could the programme be improved? Obviously.

Realistically, the cadet programme is the closest most Canadians will ever come to the CAF. If we cut it, we will lose contact with even more of the population.

 

[Furniture]

I agree.

What draws would you recommend to bring in 300 000 volunteers?

Interesting training, compensation, and maybe some form of "bling" for fancy civilian occasions.

Free range membership alone is not going to attract the kind of people we need.

 

[ytz]

I agree.

What draws would you recommend to bring in 300 000 volunteers?

You're assuming most of them have to be cheap infantry candidates. And while a chunk of them will be. I think of that pool as more likely to be people with relevant skills who can be mobilized in a pinch. Healthcare workers, mechanics, postal workers (Canada Post is one of the biggest logistics organizations in the country), pilots, etc. The people who normally don't need a ton of professional training to mobilize. But will need quick brush up with their military skills.

As for getting them in the door? Easy. Money and a minimal commitment. "Here's your $5k for showing up for your week of readiness training and evaluations. See you next year."

Keep in mind they never said those 300k will be PRes. They are supposed to be something between PRes and Supp Res. My best guess is that the first offer will go to Reg F members leaving who aren't going PRes.

 

[Eaglelord17]

I don't disagree. But there's real issues with letting several hundred thousand people randomly show up to DND facilities armed. I can't think of anybody in NATO doing this. Not even the Swiss who let people keep their weapons at home do this.

Also, marksmanship is only part of the training. Being proficient on the same weapon(s) and the same TTPs as everybody else is what separates a gun club from a military force. Unless we're creating training and licensing programs so that these places can run PWT, it's less training that sponsoring a hobby.

You’re overstating the risk of licensed gun owners (already highly vetted people) showing up on base for a approved shoot. It currently happens at some military bases without issue (such as Borden which has both a rod and gun club and about 4 times a year has range events open to the general public).

Remember if someone wanted to cause damage on base with small arms all they would have to do at most bases is walk in…

 

[Furniture]

You’re overstating the risk of licensed gun owners (already highly vetted people) showing up on base for a approved shoot. It currently happens at some military bases without issue (such as Borden which has both a rod and gun club and about 4 times a year has range events open to the general public).

Remember if someone wanted to cause damage on base with small arms all they would have to do at most bases is walk in…

In the current security environment, expect those sorts of activities to start disappearing.

The CAF is slowly waking-up to the reality of the modern world, and is looking to make bases more secure. Having a few hundred randos show-up at the gates armed for an event is not really in line with tightening security.

It sucks for the shooting community, but what doesn't these days?

 

[ytz]

Yep. Security Force is ramping up. As they stand up and all the new aircraft and other kit come on line posture at so many places will change.

 

[Kirkhill]

Cadets is probably the most effective recruiting and PR campaign the CAF has. Nothing promotes a desire to join and a stronger affinity for the CAF among civilians than Cadets. It definitely does more than say the Snowbirds.

No argument. Ex Sea Cadet here.

Is the CIC money well spent?
Can cadets be staffed with volunteers?
Can an additional 7500 "leaders" for a force of 300,000 be found?

Re training and recruiting infanteers

No.

I think we want to recruit a cross section of society with the full range of skills found in society.

As to training, basic training across all services looks a lot like basic infantry training. An introduction to the chain of command and basic life skills that will come in handy regardless of where you might be asked to employ your particular skills - military or civilian.

And I return to the Scandinavians, especially the Danes as a good example of how to raise a corps of people dedicated to their country and a passion that sees them put the energy of a hobby into their community service. They seek out opportunities to learn militarily useful skills on their own time.

....

@FJAG is at pains to point out the need for a trained reserve - people with the skills to fit in alongside the Regular Force. I agree.

I see the 300,000 volunteers as something different. I see them as civilians that can work with and assist the forces, programmers, plumbers and electricians, construction workers and mechanics that learn field skills they wouldn't normally learn on the job.

And yes, I do see them as enthusiasts that see their local unit as a social endeavour.

 

[Furniture]

As to training, basic training across all services looks a lot like basic infantry training. An introduction to the chain of command and basic life skills that will come in handy regardless of where you might be asked to employ your particular skills - military or civilian.

This is a Jamry-ism, that leads to people not interested in the army being a bit put-off or disillusioned by training. This is part of the reason the RCN started it's own BMQ, and I suspect the RCAF will follow in due course.

Jarmy-isms lead to dumb things like living in tents and dressing like infantry soldiers, when we often just need people to understand the CoC, follow direction, and be safe with weapons. There is no need to indoctrinate everyone into the army, then de-programme them when they get to their actual occupations/units.

Unless the goal is to surge infantry numbers, we should make the volunteer force as un-army as possible.

 

[ytz]

Can cadets be staffed with volunteers?

That's what the CIC are. Nobody is really doing it for the pay.....

And yes, I do see them as enthusiasts that see their local unit as a social endeavour.

I don't think the Mobilization Force will be designed the same way the PRes is.

 

[FJAG]

I don't think the Mobilization Force will be designed the same way the PRes is.

I really don't like the use of the term "mobilization force." Mobilization is an action that can apply to a variety of forces.

My preference for the various classes of reserve service are the three existing ones - primary, supplementary and Canadian Rangers (I don't see CIC as a real reserve force although I see why others might). My preference for the 300,000 is Home Guard. (I'd prefer National Guard but that confuses the term with those south of us)

 

[daftandbarmy]

Unless the goal is to surge infantry numbers, we should make the volunteer force as un-army as possible.

Based on history, there never really is a need to surge Infantry numbers...

... until about 6 months after the start of any major conflict

 

[Furniture]

Based on history, there never really is a need to surge Infantry numbers...

... until about 6 months after the start of any major conflict

If we are about to get into something gnarly, for the first few tours we can count on young men lining-up to prove to themselves they can do it. By year two or three we might need to start rounding up the others with white feathers, or other means.