Canada moves to 2% GDP end of FY25/26 - PMMC

[ytz]

Agreed. If we can find a way to get IBTS all done centrally, thatd go a long way. The hiccup will be PWT 3 in that scenario but we can cross that bridge at ranges near major cities.

I don't even think it's necessary to go that far. I look at something like this for CASFC:

I would hope that whatever facilities are designed can do BMQ/BMOQ + most of this (CASFC) locally. Maybe an occasional weekend to a regional training center or a 2-3 week field phase of CASFC instead of 5 weeks. Brigades should be able to self-generate pers that are EFP as a minimum. Substantially OFP would be even better. But that maybe a reach. But at least if OFP can be done to a point where a university summer or two high school summers gets them OFP, that would be great.

 

[ytz]

300,000 isn't a ready Reserve, it's a Mobilization Reserve. There is no need (or the ability to afford) that many personnel fully trained and ready to deploy. Certainly, divert a portion into the Primary Reserve but the main goal is to have a partially trained pool of personnel to draw on once the Reg Force and Reserves have been deployed in order to sustain/expand the military.

Yep. Way too many are daydreaming of Corps and Divisions here. Go back to first principles. What do we need? What do our foreign and defence policies say? Division level warfighting and defence of the homeland don't commit us to hundreds of brigades. Doesn't even commit us to dozens of brigades.

That mobilization reserve will mostly be ex Reg and PRes to start. And next, maybe somebody who can spare BMQ. Maybe not even that. The lower the readiness requirement, the less they need to be organized. Especially locally. Essentially, they become a large call out list. That can be organized locally by the brigades or units. But it may well end up being nationally organized. Or we may end up with some combination thereof with certain skills on national mobilization lists. Etc.

What is perhaps more interesting is what can be done with the PRes as more is invested into their infrastructure, kit and training.

 

[Kirkhill]

Denison is 11 acres. That Singaporeans MMTC that trains 120k personnel per year? 17 acres. We could build insanely effective training infrastructure for the reserves on the footprint of a rather small Amazon warehouse.

Agreed. If we can find a way to get IBTS all done centrally, thatd go a long way. The hiccup will be PWT 3 in that scenario but we can cross that bridge at ranges near major cities.

Given the way that combat is spreading out over larger areas should we be planning for more exercises outside the confined perimeters of training areas?
With the influence of drones even our largest training areas seem to me to be too limited in size.

In Europe it was common for people to train where they intended to work and fight. Rifle sections with LMGs conducting tactical movements on working docks were a fairly common sight.

 

[Kirkhill]

Yep. Way too many are daydreaming of Corps and Divisions here. Go back to first principles. What do we need? What do our foreign and defence policies say? Division level warfighting and defence of the homeland don't commit us to hundreds of brigades. Doesn't even commit us to dozens of brigades.

That mobilization reserve will mostly be ex Reg and PRes to start. And next, maybe somebody who can spare BMQ. Maybe not even that. The lower the readiness requirement, the less they need to be organized. Especially locally. Essentially, they become a large call out list. That can be organized locally by the brigades or units. But it may well end up being nationally organized. Or we may end up with some combination thereof with certain skills on national mobilization lists. Etc.

What is perhaps more interesting is what can be done with the PRes as more is invested into their infrastructure, kit and training.

My own take is that the greatest advantage of the 300,000 would be to bring civilians with the critical skills to maintain and deliver critical infrastructure under the National Defence Act and military command.

This would benefit the government but it would also benefit the "volunteers" through training, equipment and legal protections.

1st principles: Defend your desk.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Yep. Way too many are daydreaming of Corps and Divisions here. Go back to first principles. What do we need? What do our foreign and defence policies say? Division level warfighting and defence of the homeland don't commit us to hundreds of brigades. Doesn't even commit us to dozens of brigades.

That mobilization reserve will mostly be ex Reg and PRes to start. And next, maybe somebody who can spare BMQ. Maybe not even that. The lower the readiness requirement, the less they need to be organized. Especially locally. Essentially, they become a large call out list. That can be organized locally by the brigades or units. But it may well end up being nationally organized. Or we may end up with some combination thereof with certain skills on national mobilization lists. Etc.

What is perhaps more interesting is what can be done with the PRes as more is invested into their infrastructure, kit and training.

What we need is the capability to defend our sovereignty against any potential threat. Without a army of around 250k we cannot do that.

So without a serious investment in increasing our size and capability we can’t meet the main reason the CAF exists. Otherwise we are just a beck and call force which helps others periodically but can’t meet our reason for being.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Yep. Way too many are daydreaming of Corps and Divisions here. Go back to first principles. What do we need? What do our foreign and defence policies say? Division level warfighting and defence of the homeland don't commit us to hundreds of brigades. Doesn't even commit us to dozens of brigades.

Yes, it would be nice to hear what their purpose would be before engaging in any profound day dreaming.

Has anyone heard anything about that?

I note that both the Ukrainian and Russian conscription drafts, as well as the Israelis, do their 'harvesting' in 300,000 person tranches and this has been widely reported in the press during recent conflicts. I'm wondering in they ballparked that number out of those country's realities...

 

[ytz]

Given the way that combat is spreading out over larger areas should we be planning for more exercises outside the confined perimeters of training areas?
With the influence of drones even our largest training areas seem to me to be too limited in size.

You're mixing up a whole bunch of various purposes and intents here. How often is the average reservist with 3 hrs per week training on drone warfare? The goal here should be to get them trained as a basic soldier locally so that you can take them to a regional training centre in the future where they get to learn and practice drone warfare.

In Europe it was common for people to train where they intended to work and fight. Rifle sections with LMGs conducting tactical movements on working docks were a fairly common sight.

And you can do basically that inside the type of facility the Singaporeans built.

Keep in mind that literally zero of anything we're discussing is done locally today. But you want to aim for drone warfare training...... I am saying let's start with making sure a recruit in Toronto doesn't need to go to Meaford every second weekend to get BMQ and CASFC done.

My own take is that the greatest advantage of the 300,000 would be to bring civilians with the critical skills to maintain and deliver critical infrastructure under the National Defence Act and military command.

This would benefit the government but it would also benefit the "volunteers" through training, equipment and legal protections.

1st principles: Defend your desk.

Go look at what military training we give MOs. BMQ is 2 weeks of DL and 4 weeks in Saint Jean. They do an 8 day DLN course that brings them up to their branch baseline. Then they do a trades course which is a few weeks. If you look at a system like this, getting a doctor on the Mob F list shouldn't require more than 1 month of DL and 1 month of BMQ to get them to their branch baseline. If mobilized we could get them ready to deploy in weeks. Something like this could be the template for a whole bunch of support trades. That type of BMQ could even be the archetype for a whole lot of Mob F training.

 

[PrairieFella]

I don't even think it's necessary to go that far. I look at something like this for CASFC:

I would hope that whatever facilities are designed can do BMQ/BMOQ + most of this (CASFC) locally. Maybe an occasional weekend to a regional training center or a 2-3 week field phase of CASFC instead of 5 weeks. Brigades should be able to self-generate pers that are EFP as a minimum. Substantially OFP would be even better. But that maybe a reach. But at least if OFP can be done to a point where a university summer or two high school summers gets them OFP, that would be great.

Im so glad theyre bringing this back. Canning SQ/BMQ-L was a terrible mistake solely to placate the purple trades, the lack of basic soldier skills of soldiers arriving at regiments and battalions was striking. We dont have time to teach someone how to load the LMG, nevermind have to teach them their trade skills with low-quality, short DP1s. Was a real strain on SNCOs.

 

[PrairieFella]

Given the way that combat is spreading out over larger areas should we be planning for more exercises outside the confined perimeters of training areas?
With the influence of drones even our largest training areas seem to me to be too limited in size.

In Europe it was common for people to train where they intended to work and fight. Rifle sections with LMGs conducting tactical movements on working docks were a fairly common sight.

Its easy to say that until you have to deal with using firearmsand AFVs in urban areas...

 

[Halifax Tar]

Im so glad theyre bringing this back. Canning SQ/BMQ-L was a terrible mistake solely to placate the purple trades, the lack of basic soldier skills of soldiers arriving at regiments and battalions was striking. We dont have time to teach someone how to load the LMG, nevermind have to teach them their trade skills with low-quality, short DP1s. Was a real strain on SNCOs.

The answer to this is end the Purple.

 

[PrairieFella]

The answer to this is end the Purple.

100000% agree.

 

[KevinB]

Yep. Way too many are daydreaming of Corps and Divisions here. Go back to first principles. What do we need? What do our foreign and defence policies say? Division level warfighting and defence of the homeland don't commit us to hundreds of brigades. Doesn't even commit us to dozens of brigades.

I daydream of a Corps simply because it allows enablers that are otherwise homeless.

It also provides a structure to flesh out in case of need.

Frankly I’d like Canada to have 3 Maneuver Divisions, in a 30/70 sort of setup between Reg and Res.

1) Heavy Armor - suited for Europe, with one pre deployed Bde (and predeployed equipment for the rest of the Div)

2) “SHMedium LAV” - potential Dom Ops, PSO/UN/COIN tasks

3) Light(ish):

That mobilization reserve will mostly be ex Reg and PRes to start. And next, maybe somebody who can spare BMQ. Maybe not even that. The lower the readiness requirement, the less they need to be organized. Especially locally. Essentially, they become a large call out list. That can be organized locally by the brigades or units. But it may well end up being nationally organized. Or we may end up with some combination thereof with certain skills on national mobilization lists. Etc.

The big question is what do you want the MR to do?

What is perhaps more interesting is what can be done with the PRes as more is invested into their infrastructure, kit and training.

Honestly all one has to do is look at the ARNG down here and see what is possible.

 

[MJP]

Im so glad theyre bringing this back. Canning SQ/BMQ-L was a terrible mistake solely to placate the purple trades, the lack of basic soldier skills of soldiers arriving at regiments and battalions was striking. We dont have time to teach someone how to load the LMG, nevermind have to teach them their trade skills with low-quality, short DP1s. Was a real strain on SNCOs.

Pretty sure canning SQ was a CA internal decision not pressure from purple folks. Bringing back SQ does noting for purple folks. It isn't part of their DP training, so like SQ the CA is going to have to get purp folks up to speed upon posting in to a CA position

The answer to this is end the Purple.

Facts, or align them the same way we align LogOs. For the RCLS world, I have never understood how the RCLS leadership can say with a straight face that a MCPL/MS or PO/SGT who matriculates in the RCN can just slide over to the other service with ease. Now they have to learn how that service works while also doing leadership things. OFC the senior leadership in the RCLS never faced that issue as they do their leadership position within their own service (or in purple jobs where service matters less). Heaven forbid they take care of their NCMs the same way they have been treated

 

[MilEME09]

Honestly all one has to do is look at the ARNG down here and see what is possible.

Once thing i wish we did here that the ARNG does is once a year the have contractors send techs out to the BSB's with two goals, one help with annual maintenance checks, and two teach best practices and lessons learned from the experts to front line techs. We really should be doing this with Colt, GD, etc

 

[Jarnhamar]

Will Jenny's 300,000 need to speak English AND French?

 

[daftandbarmy]

Will Jenny's 300,000 need to speak English AND French?

Perhaps... but they'd better get their flag recognition right, or it's curtains!

 

[MilEME09]

Will Jenny's 300,000 need to speak English AND French?

only for the officers

 

[ytz]

I daydream of a Corps simply because it allows enablers that are otherwise homeless.

So far they are being shoved into brigades under the new expeditionary version of 1st CD.

In addition to the 3 CMBGs, the Div is getting a Light Infantry Regiment that is brigade sized, a Combat Support Brigade, a Sustainment Brigade, a fires brigad and a battalion sized Signals Regiment. That CSB has everything from air defence to CBRN to military int to Psyops to CIMIC and a whole bunch of organic sigs and logistics. Those capes are less homeless than before.

 

[KevinB]

Once thing i wish we did here that the ARNG does is once a year the have contractors send techs out to the BSB's with two goals, one help with annual maintenance checks, and two teach best practices and lessons learned from the experts to front line techs. We really should be doing this with Colt, GD, etc

The irony is most of those contractors is that a large majority are former senior enlisted or field grade officers.

Based on my own experience as someone who operated as an OEM SME, the training establishments see way more usage of materials that the OEM by themselves. Planting Tech Resources into them (or at least quarterly tech visits) allow for a beneficial relationship between contractor and government user.

Also it isn’t just the ARNG, the US Military has had to outsource so much back end support. Yes US Military is probably one of the best resourced militaries, there are still not enough uniformed troops to conduct every maintenance/support function required.

 

[KevinB]

So far they are being shoved into brigades under the new expeditionary version of 1st CD.

In addition to the 3 CMBGs, the Div is getting a Light Infantry Regiment that is brigade sized, a Combat Support Brigade, a Sustainment Brigade, a fires brigad and a battalion sized Signals Regiment. That CSB has everything from air defence to CBRN to military int to Psyops to CIMIC and a whole bunch of organic sigs and logistics. Those capes are less homeless than before.

What I see is Canada making a mini corps out of 1 CDN DIV. Which I beleive will end up both under resourcing the force while also making it ponderously slow should it need to deploy.
A Div is a maneuver unit, it is not supposed to be a static command.

The CSB to me is getting way too much pushed into it. It seems to be a placeholder unit where needed capabilities get thrown without fully thinking as to their role, and if there is a better option for their positioning.

The ADA BN/Reg’t to me should be part of the Fires Bde, as the ADAM cell needs to be involved from the ground up.


I’d like to see specialized Engineer Regiments (BN) at the Div that are relevant to the Division.
As well as some that are relevant to the Corps.

——
As well I have a major concern still about the Tank / Infantry integration, as I am a firm believer in Tank/IFV mutual support. Something the LAV cannot do.

With 2 Tank BN’s (it’s easier to phrase it that way for apples to apples) 1 CMBG has a 4 maneuver unit Bde.

2 and 5 have 2 LAV Bn, and 2 not tank Armoured BN’s who seem to be reimagining as Cavalry.


Then the 3 LIB LI Regiment, which whose attachment to 1 CDN DIV makes pretty much zero sense other than running of the day to day events.



More disappointing to me was the fact that the PRes got tossed lock stock and barrel into 2 DIV. Pretty much all PRes units are Light (if for no other reason than they do not have vehicles for their role) and the LIR would seem to be the capability that they could suppprt most easily.


Given the size of the CA, it’s pretty hard not to actually justify a Corps at the current numbers. Let alone any expansion.

Filling line infanteer positions is pretty dead nuts simple. Higher level staff positions and experience working and supporting a large formation is not.

Canada needs a lot of non Army and non CAF enablers as well.
Watching the goings on of both 4thID’s take on NGC2 (Anduril) as well as 25th ID’s (LocMart) the requirements of JADC2/JADC6ISR are enormous and will require investment in personnel and equipment.