The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[Altair]

Not yet. But every day without a deal hurts the F-35.

If Carney doesn't buy the Gripen now, going tit for tat in a tariff war, just announce the full F35 order tomorrow.

If Carney cannot bring himself to commit to SAAB in the middle of this, there is no situation outside of full scale war that he will.

 

[FJAG]

If Carney doesn't buy the Gripen now, going tit for tat in a tariff war, just announce the full F35 order tomorrow.

If Carney cannot bring himself to commit to SAAB in the middle of this, there is no situation outside of full scale war that he will.

The F35 needs to be kept in the back pocket. It's a card to be played when the time is right, not one that you throw away in a hissy fit.

He's playing the game right so far.

 

[Czech_pivo]

The F35 needs to be kept in the back pocket. It's a card to be played when the time is right, not one that you throw away in a hissy fit.

He's playing the game right so far.

Spot on

 

[ytz]

The F35 needs to be kept in the back pocket. It's a card to be played when the time is right, not one that you throw away in a hissy fit.

He's playing the game right so far.

This. Very much this. It's a substantial break in the relationship. And that card has to be played well.

 

[markppcli]

This. Very much this. It's a substantial break in the relationship. And that card has to be played well.

Posted in a ither thread but allegedly the F35s were part of the trade discussions... which doesnt bode well.

 

[ytz]

Posted in a ither thread but allegedly the F35s were part of the trade discussions... which doesnt bode well.

It was part of a whole litany of demands that effectively would have us tie ourselves further to the US. They also insisted we cancel the Globaleye buy. It's notable that the rumours are it's the US that brought it up. Not Canada. This is good negotiating. The threat of a Gripen buy is literally worth more than an actual Gripen purchase which would basically cement whatever fallout there is.

At this point, if I was in Carney's shoes, there's just no point making big moves with the midterms this close. Gauge what the mood of the American people is. Then decide how much damage in the defence relationship is worthwhile, given the wider relationship context. After the midterms.

 

[RangerRay]

Ugh, I hate so much how the F35 purchase has become even MORE of a political football. I get why but it will set us back even further in replacing the CF18s.

 

[DBNSG]

Ugh, I hate so much how the F35 purchase has become even MORE of a political football. I get why but it will set us back even further in replacing the CF18s.

Your point sadly exemplifies how the Deep Ottawa thinks about most defence decisions. Its OK for Ottawa to fuck around with fighter replacement as the USAF will always fill any gaps we create. So the ACTUAL defence of Canada is ultimately an American responsibility. This Whitehouse of course will move those checkers and bleat "see, we defend Canada and they take advantage of us".
I have chatted with many of my friends and they are so defence illiterate that they think buying Gripen is just the right Fuck Trump move. The Professionals at NORAD roll their eyes and share your Ugh.

 

[ArmyRick]

Your point sadly exemplifies how the Deep Ottawa thinks about most defence decisions. Its OK for Ottawa to fuck around with fighter replacement as the USAF will always fill any gaps we create. So the ACTUAL defence of Canada is ultimately an American responsibility. This Whitehouse of course will move those checkers and bleat "see, we defend Canada and they take advantage of us".
I have chatted with many of my friends and they are so defence illiterate that they think buying Gripen is just the right Fuck Trump move. The Professionals at NORAD roll their eyes and share your Ugh.

You bring up a very VALID point. Part of us putting our elbows up on sovereinty, is damn well getting serious on defence. I hate hearing from people who know nothing (not referring to the former member here) that are like "why don't we just build our own...", like as if designing and building fighter jets is like building some homes.
If we defer ALL our aerospace defence to the US, we are surrendering a huge part of our sovereignty to the US. Being the size of the our nation and its population and through NORAD, we will have to collaborate with the US on our aerospace defence but we must be viewed as a serious partner.

We get serious on defence or we become elbozos.

Deep Ottawa = Laurentian Elites? Or allies of the Laurentian Elite?

 

[dapaterson]

Your point sadly exemplifies how the Deep Ottawa thinks about most defence decisions. Its OK for Ottawa to fuck around with fighter replacement as the USAF will always fill any gaps we create. So the ACTUAL defence of Canada is ultimately an American responsibility. This Whitehouse of course will move those checkers and bleat "see, we defend Canada and they take advantage of us".
I have chatted with many of my friends and they are so defence illiterate that they think buying Gripen is just the right Fuck Trump move. The Professionals at NORAD roll their eyes and share your Ugh.

RCAF not having F35s today is a RCAF own goal. Prior to the 2015 election the less than stellar RCAF staff work to justify the F35 was so poorly done that the government of the day which want a to buy them could not do it, lacking the substantiation from the RCAF beyond "yo, we want it, trust us".

Those currently on order will not be based out of Canada in the near term because the RCAF has ignored security for too long, and catching up on the physical, information and personnel security deficit will take time measured in multiple years.

It's convenient to blame politicians. It's accurate to point at the seniors of the RCAF.

 

[ArmyRick]

RCAF not having F35s today is a RCAF own goal. Prior to the 2015 election the less than stellar RCAF staff work to justify the F35 was so poorly done that the government of the day which want a to buy them could not do it, lacking the substantiation from the RCAF beyond "yo, we want it, trust us".

Those currently on order will not be based out of Canada in the near term because the RCAF has ignored security for too long, and catching up on the physical, information and personnel security deficit will take time measured in multiple years.

It's convenient to blame politicians. It's accurate to point at the seniors of the RCAF.

So your saying its the RCAF fault just to be clear? Or am I reading your statement incorrectly? I don't know for sure BUT I suspect a few might disagree with you.

 

[Czech_pivo]

So your saying its the RCAF fault just to be clear? Or am I reading your statement incorrectly? I don't know for sure BUT I suspect a few might disagree with you.

And would those to disagree happen to mostly be or wholly be RCAF members or X-RCAF members?

 

[ArmyRick]

And would those to disagree happen to mostly be or wholly be RCAF members or X-RCAF members?

Hell if I know, I didn't serve in the RCAF and my experience with them was mostly scooting around on helicopters and hercs.

I said I suspect some would disagree. In other words, I guessed. It was a pretty bold statement he made.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Hell if I know, I didn't serve in the RCAF and my experience with them was mostly scooting around on helicopters and hercs.

I said I suspect some would disagree. In other words, I guessed. It was a pretty bold statement he made.

It is, yes.

On a side note, do you ever sell butchered/prepared beef on the side?

 

[ArmyRick]

It is, yes.

On a side note, do you ever sell butchered/prepared beef on the side?

Used to. We sold most of the cattle herd last year. I only had about 1200 lbs of beef available for sale this year and was able to sell it quickly. We sent our beef to the local abattoir I used to work.

We are expanding lamb big time. I will have loads of lamb available later this month. Thanks for asking.

 

[dapaterson]

Hell if I know, I didn't serve in the RCAF and my experience with them was mostly scooting around on helicopters and hercs.

I said I suspect some would disagree. In other words, I guessed. It was a pretty bold statement he made.

I had an interesting perspective as I was present at senior meetings (co-chaired by CRCAF and ADM Mat). The solid work done to ACAN C17, Herc J and Chinooks made RCAF seniors think it was easy. It is not.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Used to. We sold most of the cattle herd last year. I only had about 1200 lbs of beef available for sale this year and was able to sell it quickly. We sent our beef to the local abattoir I used to work.

We are expanding lamb big time. I will have loads of lamb available later this month. Thanks for asking.

We used to buy a 1/2 cow from first and second cousins who had a beef operation outside Mount Brydges but only have corn/soya now.

Lamb because our demographics are now changing?

 

[ArmyRick]

We used to buy a 1/2 cow from first and second cousins who had a beef operation outside Mount Brydges but only have corn/soya now.

Lamb because our demographics are now changing?

And lamb is more profitable. Less cost to raise. And more money per pound of lamb

 

[Good2Golf]

Your point sadly exemplifies how the Deep Ottawa thinks about most defence decisions. Its OK for Ottawa to fuck around with fighter replacement as the USAF will always fill any gaps we create. So the ACTUAL defence of Canada is ultimately an American responsibility. This Whitehouse of course will move those checkers and bleat "see, we defend Canada and they take advantage of us".
I have chatted with many of my friends and they are so defence illiterate that they think buying Gripen is just the right Fuck Trump move. The Professionals at NORAD roll their eyes and share your Ugh.

And some in the U.S. still see Canada as a ballistic nuclear Fulda gap, so the “free ride for defense” rhetoric can be tempered with the “Canada is a convenient buffer zone to absorb ‘Cosmos 954 on steroids’ radioactive fallout”…