Ottawa's sluggish bureaucracy leaves critical gaps in Canadian military ammo supply: AG

[childs56]

And there is where the crux of the issue is. Cost, if we could rail head everything from Edmonton to van. It would be a lot cheaper then a massive convoy of low beds.

Rail head would take along time to get things going. I think someone on here awhile ago stated Edmonton Garrison no longer has rail service on the base. So they would have to transport the equipment to the rail yard, then cross load onto the train.

My point is that we can move a lot of equipment in a fairly short amount of time if required.

 

[Halifax Tar]

My point is that we can move a lot of equipment in a fairly short amount of time if required.

*To a coast.

 

[lenaitch]

I'm not into transport logistics, but wouldn't a Leopard tank require a special permit due to weight and/or dimensions? They don't come quickly for one let alone a fleet of them unless the CAF has some kind of standing permit or the province(s) have an expedited process.

I'm not sure companies that have the fleets of suitable vehicles would have them sitting around waiting for the phone call. If the expectation is that they would drop whatever existing contracts at a moment's notice, it would cost the CAF dearly.

Then we need a suitable ship and dock space ready.

I imagine when you are not set up for expeditionary work, becoming expeditionary gets difficult.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I'm not into transport logistics, but wouldn't a Leopard tank require a special permit due to weight and/or dimensions? They don't come quickly for one let alone a fleet of them unless the CAF has some kind of standing permit or the province(s) have an expedited process.

I'm not sure companies that have the fleets of suitable vehicles would have them sitting around waiting for the phone call. If the expectation is that they would drop whatever existing contracts at a moment's notice, it would cost the CAF dearly.

Then we need a suitable ship and dock space ready.

I imagine when you are not set up for expeditionary work, becoming expeditionary gets difficult.

People think we can just load shit on a truck and go. But things to take into account are driver rest, bridge capacities, overpass heights, tunnel heights.

That's just a few.

 

[YZT580]

I'm not into transport logistics, but wouldn't a Leopard tank require a special permit due to weight and/or dimensions? They don't come quickly for one let alone a fleet of them unless the CAF has some kind of standing permit or the province(s) have an expedited process.

I'm not sure companies that have the fleets of suitable vehicles would have them sitting around waiting for the phone call. If the expectation is that they would drop whatever existing contracts at a moment's notice, it would cost the CAF dearly.

Then we need a suitable ship and dock space ready.

I imagine when you are not set up for expeditionary work, becoming expeditionary gets difficult.

trains are probably more efficient but I don't believe there is an on-base loading facility so they would have to be trucked first. Since I am guessing that Europe is a more likely destination than any place off the west coast it is all the way to a port in the Maritimes for transshipment again. Would give you lots of time to locate a suitable freighter though.

 

[dapaterson]

trains are probably more efficient but I don't believe there is an on-base loading facility so they would have to be trucked first. Since I am guessing that Europe is a more likely destination than any place off the west coast it is all the way to a port in the Maritimes for transshipment again. Would give you lots of time to locate a suitable freighter though.

Longue Pointe would appear to be reasonably well situated as a Depot for such.

Ideally the CAF would have suites of equipment to permit units to train, plus pre-positioned equipment ready for deployment in Montreal (with rotation through 202 Depot for overhaul).

 

[MJP]

Longue Pointe would appear to be reasonably well situated as a Depot for such.

Ideally the CAF would have suites of equipment to permit units to train, plus pre-positioned equipment ready for deployment in Montreal (with rotation through 202 Depot for overhaul).

The "depot" already exists in the form of Army Equipment Fielding, despite its weird name it already does that role. There are a bunch of issues and nuance with the unit and the concept as always but it is there.

 

[dapaterson]

The "depot" already exists in the form of Army Equipment Fielding, despite its weird name it already does that role. There are a bunch of issues and nuance with the unit and the concept as always but it is there.

I know I was trying (and failing) to make a joke.

 

[FJAG]

People think we can just load shit on a truck and go. But things to take into account are driver rest, bridge capacities, overpass heights, tunnel heights.

That's just a few.

This is why in a good army there are contingency plans and regular exercises to test out their efficacy.

 

[Kirkhill]

People think we can just load shit on a truck and go. But things to take into account are driver rest, bridge capacities, overpass heights, tunnel heights.

That's just a few.

Sorry, but those issues are dealt with every day of the week by thousands of civvy truck drivers and the logistics companies that employ them. And with a considerably more varied array of large and oversized cargoes.

 

[childs56]

*To a coast.

Sure

I'm not into transport logistics, but wouldn't a Leopard tank require a special permit due to weight and/or dimensions? They don't come quickly for one let alone a fleet of them unless the CAF has some kind of standing permit or the province(s) have an expedited process.

Technically DND does not need to acquire permits to move their equipment on the highways. But it would be really bad PR if they tore up a highway.

I'm not sure companies that have the fleets of suitable vehicles would have them sitting around waiting for the phone call. If the expectation is that they would drop whatever existing contracts at a moment's notice, it would cost the CAF dearly.

If there was an actual last minute need then the equipment can be sought within a short time limit. Just in the Edmonton area there

Then we need a suitable ship and dock space ready.

That would take the longest possibly if to find a ship. But there is usually one or two on each coast that just got unloaded that I am sure could be contracted if required.

I imagine when you are not set up for expeditionary work, becoming expeditionary gets difficult.

When your not set up for much everything is expensive.

People think we can just load shit on a truck and go.

Sort of, you need to ensure the routes are sufficient for the loads your transporting. They have these magical companies who arrange permits and or routing for all size of equipment transport. Trust me when I say you can ship dam near anything from coast to coast. Sometimes you need to make a bypass here or there but it can be done. Shipping a tank on a lowboy from Alberta to Vancouver or Halifax is not some rocket science or even a difficult process. (except going through Quebec).

But things to take into account are driver rest,

Depending on the requirements and contract trucks can run teams and get their quicker.

bridge capacities, overpass heights, tunnel heights.

Again there are permit people for that.

That's just a few.

Lots of reasons one is not able to perform a large road movement. The main reason is because we have never done it. So we wont do it.

It would cost over a million dollars to ship the entire Edmonton Garrison of Armored vehicles, but anything good is not cheap, and anything cheap is not good.

 

[Kirkhill]

Sure

Technically DND does not need to acquire permits to move their equipment on the highways. But it would be really bad PR if they tore up a highway.

If there was an actual last minute need then the equipment can be sought within a short time limit. Just in the Edmonton area there

That would take the longest possibly if to find a ship. But there is usually one or two on each coast that just got unloaded that I am sure could be contracted if required.

When your not set up for much everything is expensive.

Sort of, you need to ensure the routes are sufficient for the loads your transporting. They have these magical companies who arrange permits and or routing for all size of equipment transport. Trust me when I say you can ship dam near anything from coast to coast. Sometimes you need to make a bypass here or there but it can be done. Shipping a tank on a lowboy from Alberta to Vancouver or Halifax is not some rocket science or even a difficult process. (except going through Quebec).

Depending on the requirements and contract trucks can run teams and get their quicker.

Again there are permit people for that.


Lots of reasons one is not able to perform a large road movement. The main reason is because we have never done it. So we wont do it.

It would cost over a million dollars to ship the entire Edmonton Garrison of Armored vehicles, but anything good is not cheap, and anything cheap is not good.

I'm guessing they don't move much dirt in Ottawa. Or oil tanks, or granaries, or houses.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Sorry, but those issues are dealt with every day of the week by thousands of civvy truck drivers and the logistics companies that employ them. And with a considerably more varied array of large and oversized cargoes.

I am not sure what you point is.

The RCAF (I assume, maybe it was the museums) got it in their heads they wanted to move an old VooDoo, by road, from Shearwater to Trenton last month.

You want to take a guess what they and the trucking company didn't do, but our traffic techs did ?

That Voodoo is still sitting in Shearwater.

You cant just write those planning points off because they are done in the background. They are part of what needs to be done when planning the movement of material across the nation.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Sort of, you need to ensure the routes are sufficient for the loads your transporting. They have these magical companies who arrange permits and or routing for all size of equipment transport. Trust me when I say you can ship dam near anything from coast to coast. Sometimes you need to make a bypass here or there but it can be done. Shipping a tank on a lowboy from Alberta to Vancouver or Halifax is not some rocket science or even a difficult process. (except going through Quebec).

I’m not suggesting that equipment can't be moved by road. CMBGs have conducted large-scale road moves in the past, and I believe Pet drove to Wainwright a few years ago. And I have been part of a railhead that moved our BG from Pet to For Irwin.

My point is that some people seem to think it's as simple as loading a truck and driving away, when in reality a successful move requires extensive planning, coordination, and support.

That planning extends right down to fuel and food. You can't simply roll into a small town and expect the local gas station to support a large military convoy. Fuel distribution has to be coordinated in advance, with FARs established at designated refueling locations or arrangements made with industry partners to provide the necessary support along the route.

I say again, we can do this. But it take coordination and planning. And hand waving that away is madness.