Author Topic: Regulations for headdress with Combats  (Read 27650 times)

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Offline Lakatos

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Regulations for headdress with Combats
« on: September 13, 2011, 23:05:10 »
Anyone know the true regulations for headdress with combats? Because I am being told 2 different things, one officer is telling me it's fine another is telling me it's wrong.
I am C/SGT Lakatos from 2313 South Alberta Light Horse Army Cadet Corps. I was also in the Royal Westminster Regiment Army Cadet Corps of 2316.

Offline Strike

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Re: Regulations for headdress with Combats
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2011, 23:26:19 »
Anyone know the true regulations for headdress with combats? Because I am being told 2 different things, one officer is telling me it's fine another is telling me it's wrong.

Talk to the SM then.  Dress and deportment is their job.  (This, coming from an officer.)
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Offline X Royal

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Re: Regulations for headdress with Combats
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2011, 09:42:00 »
Don't forget this is in the cadet forum and official combats are not generally issued to cadets. Many cadet units wear unofficial combats when in the field.
As for "Talk to the SM then.  Dress and deportment is their job." this also does not likely apply to the cadets as there SM has no real authority over dress regs.

Offline lethalLemon

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Re: Regulations for headdress with Combats
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2011, 10:14:50 »
Here's your CATO on the Field Training Uniform (FTU):

Yellow text is information added by yours truly

Quote
CATO 46-10

AUTHORIZED UNIFORMS

...

12. RCAC Field Training Uniform (RCAC
FTU).
Army Cadets that possess an authorized
FTU are authorized to wear it when:

a. participating in authorized field
training at the corps or at the CSTC;

b. participating in authorized activities at
the corps or at the CSTC where the
wear of the FTU will prevent the user
from damaging personal civilian
clothing or the dress uniform
(eg: cleaning up of training facilities and equipment); and

c. undergoing CSTC training or acting as
staff cadet at a CSTC, in a position
that requires the wear of the FTU. The
FTU will be provided to cadets that
are authorized to wear it during CSTC
training.

13. Orders of dress for the FTU are described
at Annex A. Only two uniforms are authorized
as RCAC FTU:

a. the OG107 olive green field uniform,
as scaled in CFS-8 D08-111; and

b. the “Cadet Field Uniform” available
for procurement through the website
of the Army Cadet League of Canada. Also called CADETPAT, looks like MARPAT

14. The FTU may not be worn in public when
traveling to and from meeting facilities. When
authorized to wear the FTU, cadets shall change
into the FTU on location and change back
before returning home. The FTU is NOT an
authorized parade uniform.

...

17. Civilian camouflage-pattern clothing.
Cadets are allowed to wear civilian field
camouflage-pattern clothing or field uniforms
from other countries during the authorized field
training activities. The Army Cadet headdress
and rank insignias shall not be worn with
civilian clothing or with field uniforms from
other countries.

...

28. Combat boots. Only to be worn with the
field uniforms.


These are THE rules. Nobody can change these or order/direct people against them. Only where it says local unit CO or CSTC CO may change at their discretion, does your CO or CSTC CO have the ability to say "No, today you will do this instead."

In the field, it all comes down to common sense and what you're directed to do/wear. If it's winter and it's cold, wear a toque. If summer and really hot, wear the wide-brimmed bush hat. If it's a comfortable temperature and your Chain of Command permits, then you can wear your beret. Back when I was a cadet (well, at least as the Cadet RSM) I had two berets, one I kept at home for Parades and in-garrison training and one I used for field exercises.

As for the CATOs say, the FTU is not a permitted parade uniform, therefore no unit should be using it for regular training nights, but if equipment and such is to be maintained, then the cadets of the unit should be brining the FTU to change into along with the regular parade uniform (which they will arrive in and conduct the opening and closing parade in [and any drill]). #28, also should eliminate that HORRID "garrison dress" that some units and CSTCs use (namely Vernon ACSTC is one that I personally know of) which is the CF Green Shirt with standard trinkets (rank slip ons, nametag, ribbons etc), trousers, with combat boots (trousers bloused over the boots) - not to mention that this "garrison dress" has never been an order of dress, is not permitted, and hasn't even been a CF order of dress. It's hogwash.

Don't forget this is in the cadet forum and official combats are not generally issued to cadets. Many cadet units wear unofficial combats when in the field.
As for "Talk to the SM then.  Dress and deportment is their job." this also does not likely apply to the cadets as there SM has no real authority over dress regs.

All Army cadets as far as I remember are issued OG-107s (some units lack them, and only issue what they have; while some units have very worn out stock and don't issue them at all because they look nasty and aren't practical in their condition, but they still have a supply). All Army CSTCs and NCTCs issue cadets with the FTU. I can't speak for Air and Sea cadets though.

As someone who was once a Cadet SSM/RSM, I was given the "authority" (I say it lightly because it's not absolute) to ensure all cadets showed up in not only the proper order of dress and were informed by - yours truly - on opening parade if something was out of place or not up to standard. I may not have authority over the Dress Regs (to change them) but for cadets, the CATO Dress Regs are the final word unless it clearly states that Unit CO or CSTC CO has discretion. So all I did was carry around the Dress Regs Chapter of the CATOs and it's ANNEX A (illustrations and details for every single little thing that relates to dress right down to the measurements for trimming moustaches and badge placement) along with my personally created abridged version of the CFP201 and enforced them. EX: During winter, if we had to do anything outside, I'd direct them to remove berets and apply toque.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2011, 10:28:46 by lethalLemon »
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Offline X Royal

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Re: Regulations for headdress with Combats
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2011, 10:59:01 »
As someone who was once a Cadet SSM/RSM, I was given the "authority" (I say it lightly because it's not absolute) to ensure all cadets showed up in not only the proper order of dress and were informed by - yours truly - on opening parade if something was out of place or not up to standard.
.................
So all I did was carry around the Dress Regs Chapter of the CATOs and it's ANNEX A (illustrations and details for every single little thing that relates to dress right down to the measurements for trimming moustaches and badge placement) along with my personally created abridged version of the CFP201 and enforced them. EX: During winter, if we had to do anything outside, I'd direct them to remove berets and apply toque.

As I said a cadet "SM has "no real authority" over dress regs."(direct/inform ::))
Yes you were authorized to point out things out of place & give some direction but you had no real authority.
If another cadet to you to f*** off & go pound salt what would be your authority. Nil!!
You would report him/her up your chain of command where one of you officers would deal with it, where the most drastic punishment would be please turn in your issued items as you can no longer play with the other kids.
Try telling your SM in the Reg Force or even the Reserves to  f*** off & go pound salt and you'll quickly find out about real authority.

Offline N. McKay

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Re: Regulations for headdress with Combats
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2011, 12:29:57 »
If another cadet to you to f*** off & go pound salt what would be your authority. Nil!!

A cadet RSM has as much authority as the CO is willing to delegate.  If a CO is prepared to allow the RSM to impose extra duties or extra drill, or lay a "charge" under the unit's disciplinary process (whatever form that may take) then the cadet RSM isn't too far adrift of the authority of a CF RSM.

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Re: Regulations for headdress with Combats
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2011, 12:32:50 »
A cadet RSM has as much authority as the CO is willing to delegate.  If a CO is prepared to allow the RSM to impose extra duties or extra drill, or lay a "charge" under the unit's disciplinary process (whatever form that may take) then the cadet RSM isn't too far adrift of the authority of a CF RSM.

Holy crap, you're actually serious?

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Offline ArmyVern

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Re: Regulations for headdress with Combats
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2011, 12:44:34 »
Oh my gawd ...

Thanks for the hilarious break from reality ...

 :rofl:
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Offline N. McKay

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Re: Regulations for headdress with Combats
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2011, 13:20:28 »
Holy crap, you're actually serious?

Why don't you outline the recourse a reg force RSM has in relation to a soldier who tells him to pound sand.  Here's what I have so far: charge him, lay on extras, administer a good blast of you-know-what... what else?

Offline Pusser

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Re: Regulations for headdress with Combats
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2011, 13:34:22 »
Sorry for going off tanget here, but I have to jump in.  No RSM has the authority to lay on extras.  That would be considered punishment and no one can be punished without first being charged, tried, found guilty and sentenced to said punishment.

Now, before the dogpile starts - I am well aware that RSMs, XOs, Adjts, etc often assign extra duties to all and sundry for a variety of reasons.  My usual advice to minor miscreants is to suck it up and do it because once it's done, it's done.  All is forgotten and we all get on with out lives.  This is often preferable to having a formal charge on record.  However, the fact remains that no one has the authority to punish without a trial.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2011, 23:38:01 by Pusser »
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Regulations for headdress with Combats
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2011, 13:47:02 »
Sorry for going off tanget here, but I have to jump in.  No RSM has the authority to lay on extras.  That would be considered punishment and no one can be punished without first being charged, tried, found guilty and sentenced to said punishment.

Now, before the dogpile starts - I am well aware that RSMs, XOs, Adjts, etc often assigne extra duties to all and sundry for a variety of reasons.  My usual advice to minor miscreants is to suck it up and do it because once it's done, it's done.  All is forgotten and we all get on with out lives.  This is often preferable to having a formal charge on record.  However, the fact remains that no one has the authority to punish without a trial.

Ah but it's corrective training.....not punishment. You are correct, I as a DSM cannot punish anyone without the aforementioned trials etc. But I can take corrective action.
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Offline darkskye

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Re: Regulations for headdress with Combats
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2011, 14:27:24 »
Sorry for going off tanget here, but I have to jump in.  No RSM has the authority to lay on extras.  That would be considered punishment and no one can be punished without first being charged, tried, found guilty and sentenced to said punishment.

Now, before the dogpile starts - I am well aware that RSMs, XOs, Adjts, etc often assigne extra duties to all and sundry for a variety of reasons.  My usual advice to minor miscreants is to suck it up and do it because once it's done, it's done.  All is forgotten and we all get on with out lives.  This is often preferable to having a formal charge on record.  However, the fact remains that no one has the authority to punish without a trial.

Guilty until proven innocent.
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Offline Scott

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Re: Regulations for headdress with Combats
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2011, 15:42:47 »
Why don't you outline the recourse a reg force RSM has in relation to a soldier who tells him to pound sand.  Here's what I have so far: charge him, lay on extras, administer a good blast of you-know-what... what else?

 :facepalm:

You just don't get it. Cadets are a youth group and not CF members. There is nothing stopping a young buck from telling the Cadet RSM to go frig himself, or the Corps/Squadron CO for that matter, and then leaving his kit piled in front of the office. There is no recourse for that other than telephoning Mummy and Daddy to report that Junior was a badass. 50/50 shot that Mummy and daddy won't give a damn and will simply be happy that Junior doesn't have to be driven to cadets once a week.

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Offline lethalLemon

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Re: Regulations for headdress with Combats
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2011, 21:07:41 »
That's why I said AUTHORITY lightly... Does anyone read anymore these days? I never, EVER handled disciplinary/corrective action myself; unless the CO said "Well, make them march around the parade square for the next 20 minutes." I simply enforced the Dress Regs as I was appointed to do so by the CO, and if anyone said anything I reported it to the CO. I never acted, instructed, or inspected in any kind of authoritative manner - because I was fully aware that I do not have that kind of "power" as a cadet.

Let's all remember here - we're talking about a CADET SM. I've been taught well, and knew my place and my permitted abilities and I certainly know that a PRes/RegF RSM is the Be All - End All when it comes to authority.

« Last Edit: September 15, 2011, 21:10:48 by lethalLemon »
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Offline N. McKay

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Re: Regulations for headdress with Combats
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2011, 21:13:22 »
Cadets are a youth group and not CF members.

I get that -- I've been at the coalface of the cadet programme for twelve years, the last three as the CO of a unit.

Quote
There is nothing stopping a young buck from telling the Cadet RSM to go frig himself, or the Corps/Squadron CO for that matter, and then leaving his kit piled in front of the office.

That's true.  (And a CF member who wants to do the same thing more or less can as long as he times it so his release comes first rather than after!)

But my question was about the difference in authority an RSM has in the two respective situations.  A cadet RSM has as much authority as the CO is willing to give him.  In my last unit, if a cadet had been insubordinate to the Coxn, the Coxn would have filled out a form not unlike a charge sheet ("Insubordination, in that on 15 Sep 11 at 2202 he told me to go and frig myself") and the cadet would wind up in front of the XO to answer for his actions, with a range of possible consequences up to being released (subject to the procedural Ts being crossed).  It's not a materially different process from a CF RSM laying a charge.

The significant difference lies in the possible outcomes (release from a cadet unit, as compared with a legal proceeding and possible fines, etc., for a CF member), but the role and scope of action of the RSM is similar in both cases.

Now, I've never served under an RSM so I may be missing something, hence my question.

But, getting back to the original point, the RSM in a cadet unit (and the equivalents in the other elements) is normally delegated authority from the CO to enforce the basics of dress and deportment, having recourse to the disciplinary system for those occasions when "get rid of that gum and do up your buttons!" doesn't get the expected response.

Offline Pugsley

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Re: Regulations for headdress with Combats
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2011, 22:06:07 »
Was this not a forum about what headdress a cadet may wear with a field uniform?

Offline Pusser

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Re: Regulations for headdress with Combats
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2011, 23:55:53 »
Ah but it's corrective training.....not punishment. You are correct, I as a DSM cannot punish anyone without the aforementioned trials etc. But I can take corrective action.

True, but there can be a very fine line between "corrective training" and "punishment."  If "corrective training" looks like "extra work and drill" (a punishment defined in the QR&O), a barrack room lawyer can argue that it is indeed punishment (and thus not allowed) and he could well be right.

A word of caution to any mess deck lawyers thinking about this:  sometimes the price of being right is higher than you might think... :nod:

I still have vivid memories of a one-way conversation many years ago where a certain young officer had this spelled out very clearly:  he could do exactly as the XO said, or things could get "more formal."  The young officer chalked it up to experience (he had her phone number anyway) and did exactly as the XO said.  ;)

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Re: Regulations for headdress with Combats
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2011, 06:42:11 »
A word of caution to any mess deck lawyers thinking about this:  sometimes the price of being right is higher than you might think... :nod:

Ding, ding, ding.
____________

Neil,

I was in the CCM for five years. I was not the Cadet who told people to go and ram it. I did, however, have the unfortunate experience of witnessing several younger Cadets quit when they were mistreated by higher ranking Cadets. There were also kids who quite because they were 'punished' and didn't want to deal with it - and it was for the good of the group because they had been taking away from the others' enjoyment.

A CF RSM has tools available to them to ensure that a transgression follows a member for their entire career or that it makes the career shorter or even more difficult. That is one very simple and narrow example, among a very many, of how the two are vastly different. You tell me the last time a kid not having his boots shined affected his career. Or tell me about your firsthand knowledge of kids being denied entrance to the CF because they told a Cadet RSM to ram it.

lethalLemon,

Just a friendly word of advice: stop taking yourself so seriously. Most of this is not directed at you, least not from me. ;)
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Offline ArmyVern

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Re: Regulations for headdress with Combats
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2011, 08:50:44 »
That's why I said AUTHORITY lightly... Does anyone read anymore these days? I never, EVER handled disciplinary/corrective action myself; unless the CO said "Well, make them march around the parade square for the next 20 minutes." I simply enforced the Dress Regs as I was appointed to do so by the CO, and if anyone said anything I reported it to the CO. I never acted, instructed, or inspected in any kind of authoritative manner - because I was fully aware that I do not have that kind of "power" as a cadet.

Let's all remember here - we're talking about a CADET SM. I've been taught well, and knew my place and my permitted abilities and I certainly know that a PRes/RegF RSM is the Be All - End All when it comes to authority.

Well, you won't find a CSM or an RSM doing this yellow bit --- that's what Sgts do; and if anyone says anything to the Sgts (and even MCpls!!) they issue a caution (ie: you have the right to ...) and off we higher-ups then go ...

I can not believe that anyone here is actually attempting to compare cadets with CF members in means of authority over anything. I am flabberghasted. Having been an SM in both worlds, I can only say "WTF!!?? over" --- stop trying to compare ants to elephants.
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Offline RussBar119

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Re: Regulations for headdress with Combats
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2011, 12:04:38 »
Quote
Was this not a forum about what headdress a cadet may wear with a field uniform?

It was until everyone had to satisfy their online egos.

I hope you found the answer you needed. If your officer still disagrees with the CATO and imposes any corrective action than print off the CATO and ask through a properly written memo for arbitration from the CO. If that does not work then go through your units UCCMA advisor.

Best of luck.
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Regulations for headdress with Combats
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2011, 12:26:12 »
It was until everyone had to satisfy their online egos.


Question was answered. We go off on tangents sometimes, but we have mods to put us back on track. Issues?
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Offline lethalLemon

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Re: Regulations for headdress with Combats
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2011, 23:40:37 »


lethalLemon,

Just a friendly word of advice: stop taking yourself so seriously. Most of this is not directed at you, least not from me. ;)

I was speaking in generalities really ;)
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Offline Lakatos

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Re: Regulations for headdress with Combats
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2011, 19:27:09 »
Thank you all for clearing up the issue about headdress with combats
I am C/SGT Lakatos from 2313 South Alberta Light Horse Army Cadet Corps. I was also in the Royal Westminster Regiment Army Cadet Corps of 2316.

Offline Get Nautical

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Re: Regulations for headdress with Combats
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2012, 05:15:40 »
A word of caution to any mess deck lawyers thinking about this:  sometimes the price of being right is higher than you might think

They did the same thing to me, no beret with combats etc yet the C/RSM was wearing one. I might of quoted a CATO or two and it evolved to be wear the cookie cutter not the regimental cap badge in field. On the Ex that followed they gave me an ultimatum and being proud I made a deal with the devil, "I shall not loose my regimental cap badge"

On the Ex I had to lead a couple of junior cadets in small party taskings, including setting up a bivouac
I was preoccupied with doing something up high with both hands trying to get a rope on a branch to hang food and my beret fell off, it was returned back up to me by one of the persons accessing me, I put it back on without noticing
later I discover it has no regimental Cap badge. I look all over the place and couldn't find it, get in blast of .... and am no longer allowed to wear a regimental cap badge for some time
I return back to the same location after the weekend determined to find it (Ex was in a secluded bush location close to my house) to no avail.

I later talk to the ******* who assessed me, a year or so later (when he was no longer in) he confessed to stealing the cap badge (confirming my suspicions) at the request of the C/RSM to teach me a lesson. I never bothered pursuing it as too much time had passed.

A lot of great people but sometimes there is a few bad eggs

Keep that in mind when playing hardball to what you think are BS rules, politics and favouritism
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 05:46:33 by Get Nautical »