Author Topic: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]  (Read 601713 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline dangerboy

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 324,599
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,824
Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2011, 18:27:32 »
ND Policy:

No longer will the candidate be charge for having an ND in the clearing bay.

Again not my call....

Wondering if that is based on advice from a JAG or his own idea?  Either way not very impressed with the idea.  When you pull the trigger you best be 100% sure you know what you are doing, to many people have been killed or injured as a result of poor weapons handling drills.
All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us... they can't get away this time.
- Lt Gen Lewis B. Puller, USMC

Offline BulletMagnet

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 10,113
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,010
  • I'm not just disobedient, I'm careful
Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2011, 18:32:21 »
Apparently it is legal I am not sure how but then again I am not a JAG. I don't agree with it either but the reason was that the Candidates are intimidated enough with the weapon during the field phase and this will help relive some of the stress.
"Often have I regretted my speech, never my silence" Cpl Jordan Anderson 1981-2007 RIP

When the going gets tough I take a nap...It's easier that way

aesop081

  • Guest
Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2011, 18:40:33 »
the reason was that the Candidates are intimidated enough with the weapon during the field phase and this will help relive some of the stress.

More time spent training with the weapon removes the intimidation factor. Once again, we have chosen the expedient solution  :facepalm:

Offline MJP

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 155,270
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,374
Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2011, 18:50:24 »
ND Policy:

No longer will the candidate be charge for having an ND in the clearing bay.

Again not my call....

More time spent training with the weapon removes the intimidation factor. Once again, we have chosen the expedient solution  :facepalm:

I was just thinking the same thing CA.  We instituted a course policy of always having a loaded and readied weapon while outside on two of the BIQs I taught on.  I have had he pleasure of keeping in touch with a number of the soldiers over time.  They all said years later that the respect, experience, & confidence that they gained on the weapon at the time served them well in their careers.  A good number of them are MCpls now and are doing the same thing when they can with their troops.
Hope is not a valid COA

Offline BulletMagnet

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 10,113
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,010
  • I'm not just disobedient, I'm careful
Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2011, 18:54:22 »
I tried that with my section during the field phase however one member of the section had an ND in the clearing bay (why he cleared his weapon I don't know) and then I had to resind that order. Sadly the numbers of ND reflects on the Platoon standing as having ND is a PO failure.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 18:57:27 by BulletMagnet »
"Often have I regretted my speech, never my silence" Cpl Jordan Anderson 1981-2007 RIP

When the going gets tough I take a nap...It's easier that way

aesop081

  • Guest
Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2011, 18:59:00 »
CFLRS unloading problems to the next training establishment................ :facepalm:

Offline MJP

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 155,270
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,374
Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2011, 19:02:40 »
Sadly the numbers of ND reflects on the Platoon standing as having ND is a PO failure.

Wow talk about unintended consequences.  I think de-linking the two would have been one part of the solution rather than just allowing NDs to slide.  Treat them exactly like they are treated out in big world land. 
Hope is not a valid COA

Offline 1984

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 5,939
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 300
Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2011, 20:04:21 »
 >:(  "PTE!!!...That bed is atrocious, your shirts are wrinkled and your boots need more polish!!!"

 :geek:  "GASP!!!...but, but, but Sgt I need to improve my score in Angry Birds or RicoSwave123 will pass me on the high score roster!!!"

sigh....what a world, what a world...  :facepalm:

Offline kenmnuggas

  • Guest
  • *
  • 400
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 22
Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2011, 21:20:06 »
Yikes, this is a rough one to swallow.

The following sentence is a joke. Sort of.
I hear people say that it's hard to remember all these military acronyms, but it seems as though they've forgotten the N in ND stands for negligent.

Offline GAP

  • Semper Fi
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 210,615
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,943
Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2011, 21:42:03 »
Yikes, this is a rough one to swallow.

The following sentence is a joke. Sort of.
I hear people say that it's hard to remember all these military acronyms, but it seems as though they've forgotten the N in ND stands for negligent.

Oh...that's simple to solve....just buy the MilQuotes app http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/military-quotes/id469617175. Then if they're not sure simply look it up before they clear their weapon............. ;D
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I´m not so sure about the universe

Offline ARMY_101

  • Banned
  • Full Member
  • *
  • 6,050
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 327
Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2011, 12:28:24 »
I really don't see what the big deal is.  During my course I was always allowed to keep my phone on me, as was everyone else unless they screwed around and did something stupid.  Pulling out your phone during a lesson, drill, exercise, patrol, etc. would be a no-brainer severe jacking up and probably result in your phone being taken away for a few hours or a day.

Our courses were also busy after-hours, with weapons cleaning, polishing boots, cleaning, packing for ex, etc., and it was the same as above: if you were playing games on your phone or texting your girlfriend when you should have been studying or doing something else, you'd feel the wrath of the leadership staff very quickly (if not your own platoon and/or section).

That policy worked fine: members were allowed to check their phone and use it during off hours.  I usually even left my phone back in barracks and just checked it when my training and duties were done for the day.  I didn't see anyone bring a laptop, but many of us did bring MP3 players/iPods to listen to music.

There's no reason to be upset at this policy.  Having these items in your possession does not castrate the course staff's ability to temporarily confiscate the items or limit when and where they can be used.

Offline 1984

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 5,939
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 300
Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2011, 09:58:12 »
I really don't see what the big deal is.  During my course I was always allowed to keep my phone on me, as was everyone else unless they screwed around and did something stupid.  Pulling out your phone during a lesson, drill, exercise, patrol, etc. would be a no-brainer severe jacking up and probably result in your phone being taken away for a few hours or a day.

Our courses were also busy after-hours, with weapons cleaning, polishing boots, cleaning, packing for ex, etc., and it was the same as above: if you were playing games on your phone or texting your girlfriend when you should have been studying or doing something else, you'd feel the wrath of the leadership staff very quickly (if not your own platoon and/or section).

That policy worked fine: members were allowed to check their phone and use it during off hours.  I usually even left my phone back in barracks and just checked it when my training and duties were done for the day.  I didn't see anyone bring a laptop, but many of us did bring MP3 players/iPods to listen to music.

There's no reason to be upset at this policy.  Having these items in your possession does not castrate the course staff's ability to temporarily confiscate the items or limit when and where they can be used.

The biggest problem I have with regards to this issue is that Basic Training 'seems' to be producing a lower quality of soldier by no longer tearing down the wall of entitlement and rebuilding these folks into a functioning member of the organization i.e. a proper soldier.  The Pte soldiers that come to me have no respect for authority, question everything, have very little ability to function in the team environment, and god forbid you ask them to work past 4 o'clock.  Every concession given during the training process is one more issue that adds to the chorus of disciplinary problems on the other end.  Re-education has become my full time job and I now need a degree in social work (every little thing becomes a morale issue).

Offline Allgunzblazing

  • Member
  • ****
  • 18,190
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 140
Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2011, 11:57:33 »
This is entirely my own opinion, but I can't helping considering those Recruits/ Officer Cadets who VR simply because of limited access to the outside world as being misfits for the military. Everyone enrolling into the military knows (or should know) that they can be deployed overseas for months on end, and based on the secracy associated with the mission, outside contact may be limited.

Apart from all this, the very purpose of indoctrination is to break down and rebuild.

When I was a residential university student (in India), all first year students had to go through a three month period of "ragging" by the seniors. Mind you, any form of ragging is by law illegal in India. But we were all in a new city for the first time away from home, so deciding to complain never even crossed our minds. I am not condoning what we went through, because a lot of it would be termed as "torture" and "inhumane" in the western world.

Some of what we went through was - "falling in" from 21:00 to 05:00 hours, repeated slaps during the fall in period, five minute wake up calls through out the night, ironing over 100 cloths a day (belonging to the seniors), not allowed to step outside the hostel (there was only one phone on which calls could only be received and obviously this was reserved for the senior students. Cell phones were too new and none of us could afford them. This was in 98), standing straight and looking directly up at a point on the ceiling for hours, cleaning the toilets and rooms of the senior students, measuring the floor with a coin and if there was a discrepancy there would be that many slaps, etc, etc. Oh yes, the boys had to have their heads shaved during this period. One last detail - guys ragged guys and girls ragged girls.

Again, I would not like anyone to go through this. The worst was the slaps. I'm talking hard back-handed slaps, not a little rap on the cheek. (One of my friends broke his tooth). What I'm trying to get at, is that going through all this turture strengthened as as a class. There were 30 of us and all of us helped each other out. Say if I was tasked with irons the cloths and a class who had missed being given a task, would automatically help me out (on the sly). We were one united body and all of us are still in contact with each other. Looking back now, we should not have put up with all that crap and should've gone to the police and the university.

Coming back to the basic training at CFLRS. I'm certain that if there was a death or some other serious situation in my family and they contacted the school,  they will give me the time to make the necessary calls. So, what is the big deal if I dont have access to my cell phone?! This is Canada, one of the richest and most modern country in the world. Its not the CFLRS is located at Timbuktu!

Again, all the above is my own opinion. Others may agree or disagree.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 12:10:42 by Allgunzblazing »

Offline BulletMagnet

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 10,113
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,010
  • I'm not just disobedient, I'm careful
Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2011, 12:08:02 »
The biggest problem I have with regards to this issue is that Basic Training 'seems' to be producing a lower quality of soldier by no longer tearing down the wall of entitlement and rebuilding these folks into a functioning member of the organization i.e. a proper soldier.  The Pte soldiers that come to me have no respect for authority, question everything, have very little ability to function in the team environment, and god forbid you ask them to work past 4 o'clock.  Every concession given during the training process is one more issue that adds to the chorus of disciplinary problems on the other end.  Re-education has become my full time job and I now need a degree in social work (every little thing becomes a morale issue).

Swing,
I agree with everything you just said and I teach there... The bold, underlined part is actually part of the training syllabus. They are in love with transformational leadership and the idea is that you no longer tell them to do something and they do it, you now will explain the why's and what for's of your commands.
"Often have I regretted my speech, never my silence" Cpl Jordan Anderson 1981-2007 RIP

When the going gets tough I take a nap...It's easier that way

Offline ARMY_101

  • Banned
  • Full Member
  • *
  • 6,050
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 327
Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2011, 12:16:18 »
The biggest problem I have with regards to this issue is that Basic Training 'seems' to be producing a lower quality of soldier by no longer tearing down the wall of entitlement and rebuilding these folks into a functioning member of the organization i.e. a proper soldier.  The Pte soldiers that come to me have no respect for authority, question everything, have very little ability to function in the team environment, and god forbid you ask them to work past 4 o'clock.  Every concession given during the training process is one more issue that adds to the chorus of disciplinary problems on the other end.  Re-education has become my full time job and I now need a degree in social work (every little thing becomes a morale issue).

There must be an objective, General-level study on the "quality" of recruits being produced nowadays compared to the "quality" 10, 20, 50 years ago, no?  Recruits today may be more reliant on technology, but they also have an education higher than grade 3, which wasn't seen in the World Wars.  The Americans are also beginning to issue iPhones and computerize individual soldiers doing patrols, so technology is present and it will remain present.  Whether that produces a worse soldier is a study I'd be interested in reading.

aesop081

  • Guest
Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2011, 12:21:11 »
but they also have an education higher than grade 3, which wasn't seen in the World Wars. 

So ?

That has not prevented them from doing some of stupidest things i have ever seen. Some of my biggest problem children were from this "educated" bunch.......You know, the ones that put a fight when its time to work late, the ones who can't show up to work on time, the ones who don't understand deadlines......The ones who can't write a memo to save their lives......

Yeah, educated  ::)
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 12:24:08 by CDN Aviator »

Offline 1984

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 5,939
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 300
Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2011, 12:36:38 »
Swing,
I agree with everything you just said and I teach there... The bold, underlined part is actually part of the training syllabus. They are in love with transformational leadership and the idea is that you no longer tell them to do something and they do it, you now will explain the why's and what for's of your commands.

And therein lies the problem.  I shouldn't have to line everyone up and play the disappointed dad because they feel sweeping the floor is beneath them.  Sometimes the 'Why' is just common sense i.e. you sweep the floor because it is dirty; it is not a punishment or a reason for hurt feelings and insubordinate behavior.

As for "transformational leadership", if this is how I am expected to lead then when do I get my conversion course and Mr Rogers sweater?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 12:42:58 by Swingline1984 »

Offline jasonf6

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 2,139
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 78
Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2011, 13:00:54 »
If you cannot manage going 4-weeks without your precious iPhone4s or your laptop to call home to mommy you don't belong in the military in my opinion.  Sure times have changed since I went through basic in St. Jean (and it was a joke even then) but c'mon.  For 13-weeks your mindset should be focused solely on being part of a team and doing everything you can to succeed. 

Offline Rider Pride

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 29,388
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,816
  • Easy to draw, hard to spell
Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2011, 14:15:42 »
There has been larger policy shifts in the CF over the last 20 years, and each time a policy changes some members (of similar thought as most of you here) has said this will be detrimental to the Canadian Forces as a whole.

Well perhaps it will be, and perhaps those other policy changes have had a net negative effect too.

But THIS Canadian Forces has just completed two successful huge missions, plus dozens of small ones, while transferring its main efforts from one theater to another plus morphed from a "peacekeeping" role to a combat role to a tng role in the last 10 years.

I'd say the doom-and-gloom is uncalled for, and its time to earn your "Leading Change" bubble on your PER, as we leaders find a way to mitigate whatever negative effects of this policy may arise.
"Return with your shield, or upon it."

Offline 1984

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 5,939
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 300
Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #44 on: December 11, 2011, 14:47:06 »
There has been larger policy shifts in the CF over the last 20 years, and each time a policy changes some members (of similar thought as most of you here) has said this will be detrimental to the Canadian Forces as a whole.

Well perhaps it will be, and perhaps those other policy changes have had a net negative effect too.

But THIS Canadian Forces has just completed two successful huge missions, plus dozens of small ones, while transferring its main efforts from one theater to another plus morphed from a "peacekeeping" role to a combat role to a tng role in the last 10 years.

I'd say the doom-and-gloom is uncalled for, and its time to earn your "Leading Change" bubble on your PER, as we leaders find a way to mitigate whatever negative effects of this policy may arise.

I know where you've been working for the last 6years and I know how motivated your personnel can be.  Back in the REAL world I've learned that the grass is truly greener on your side of the fence.  It is BAD out here, at least in my little microcosm, and the failure is systemic.  We have the same workload within the world of Operational Support and are short on trained/experienced leaders and overall manpower, the last thing we need is a hoard of disciplinary issues.  It is unfair that the units have to do the heavy lifting with regards to shaping these kids, in my mind the shaping should be done in the training system and when they are passed onto me I WILL then do MY part and ensure that the new shape is maintained while I endeavour to fill that empty vessel.  At the end of the day I have a role to fill and a task to accomplish which is made all the harder when the troops won't even polish their boots because they do not understand "why" they should, and when disciplinary/administrative action is brought to bear everyone walks around with an even bigger lip and a chip on their shoulder.  What does all this have to do with 'electronics during BMQ"?  It's one more straw on the camel's back.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 14:53:25 by Swingline1984 »

aesop081

  • Guest
Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #45 on: December 11, 2011, 15:02:11 »


I'd say the doom-and-gloom is uncalled for,

There is no doom-and-gloom being said. The CF will get on and get the job done quite well. What is deplorable is that we have shifted the burden of indoctrinating recruits from CFLRS to the trade schools and operational units, all in the name of reducing VRs.

A broken clock is right twice a day but it is still broken.

Offline ARMY_101

  • Banned
  • Full Member
  • *
  • 6,050
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 327
Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #46 on: December 11, 2011, 15:06:03 »
Technology is a part of the forces, but allowing recruits access to iphone crap so they don't quit BMQ is pathetic.

If they can't last 4weeks without posting their BMQ ninja sniper stories in their facebook status then they don't belong in the Forces.

What precisely is wrong with allowing someone to call home, text friends, or see what's new in their social circles?

I agree: if someone is so addicted to their phone that it's distracting them from training or holding them back from studying for a test, cleaning, etc., then by all means take it away and discipline them.  And if they're releasing because someone told them to put their phone away, then I'd also agree that they probably don't belong in a trade where they very well may have to go days, weeks, or months without texting or checking Facebook.

I don't know of anyone who couldn't put their phone down or leave it back in the barracks during training.  Most people wouldn't even want to bring it out during training for an exercise or for the day for fear that it would be damaged.  But at night, when everything's done and you're just waiting for orders or sitting on your bed with nothing to do, what's wrong with saying hi to the family?

Offline DexOlesa

  • Member
  • ****
  • 7,176
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 225
Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #47 on: December 11, 2011, 15:15:26 »
See THAT I can get on board with as a complaint. I can and do go without my phone as did everyone else on the course. They were never taken away, but we were not to use them during the day, only after hours and weekends, and even then I used it sparingly as did anyone else I saw. But yes people that would quit over not getting their phones for 4 weeks (and you still get them if there is an emergency) should not be in the forces.

aesop081

  • Guest
Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #48 on: December 11, 2011, 15:28:06 »
And if they're releasing because someone told them to put their phone away, then I'd also agree that they probably don't belong in a trade where they very well may have to go days, weeks, or months without texting or checking Facebook.

So why change the policy to coddle people who were VR'ing due to not having their toys ?

Quote
nothing to do,

Thats the problem right there............

Offline GnyHwy

  • Is a pragmatic optimist.
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 36,535
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,340
  • GO GUNS!!!
Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #49 on: December 11, 2011, 15:35:20 »
What precisely is wrong with allowing someone to call home, text friends, or see what's new in their social circles?

Social media is a distraction, plain and simple; even if it's turned off.  Everything second that is spent thinking about if someone replied to your message, or thinking about what you're going to write in your next message is a second that is not spent focused on training.  Those seconds add up quick and by the end of a 13 week period will sum to a hell of a lot of time.

This does not stop after recruit training.  I know of more than one occasion where troops (Pte to MCpl) were not allowed to use to use their phones except for lunch; not even breaks.  Snr NCMs and Os do not get any special treatment either.  If they are using social media when they are suppose to be working, they get in crap too.

Communications of all types in the recruit school should be limited to a short window per day.  I say 1-2 hours after supper or your last period; that is usually when our brain is mush anyway.  Special circumstances can be handled on a case by case basis.

Recruits,  you left home to be a soldier.  Cut the cord and move on.  Don't worry, your friends and family will still be there when it's over.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 16:10:23 by GnyHwy »
Luck is for Suckers - GnyHwy

If you're gonna speak outside the box, you should understand the inside of the box first - GnyHwy