Author Topic: Royal Canadian Air Force headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general  (Read 360106 times)

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Offline Cloud Cover

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What is Canada's strategic, security, or economic link to Niger? The ROE had better be "weapons free" and we had better bring lots of nasty weapons: http://heavy.com/news/2016/07/new-isis-islamic-state-daesh-amaq-news-pictures-videos-wilayat-west-africa-wilayat-gharb-afriqiya-boko-haram-bosso-army-camp-attack-full-uncensored-youtube-video/

ISIL runs across the borders into other countries after their raids, it is hard to see how a peacekeeping mission can deal with that.

How many people will want to vomit when Trudeau, Dion and Singh are on the tarmac in Trenton.





   
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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ISIL runs across the borders into other countries after their raids, it is hard to see how a peacekeeping mission can deal with that.

In Vietnam, I believe we used defoliants, and special forces that did not - do you hear - did not enter Cambodia or Laos  ;D.


Offline Bird_Gunner45

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What is Canada's strategic, security, or economic link to Niger?   

according to our embassy:

- We trade to the whopping amount of $7.8 million dollars/year;
- Canada provided around $30 million in humanitarian aid in 14/15;
- Canada contributed $5.4 million to the world food programme and CARE Canada to provide humanitarian aid in the Diffa Region;
- Canada pledge $20 million in July 15 to stop child marriage;
- Canada maintains a counter terrorism mission in Niger and Canada-Algeria co-chair a working group on the Sahel. Niger is allowed to take part!
- Canada and Niger are both members of the UN and the francophonie

So, in sum, there is essentially no link between the two nations aside from the common French heritage/colonial association.

Strategically, our association is iffy... Canada may have some interests in Africa, and taking a role in peacekeeping (making?) there might be a means of employing soft power throughout the continent, like China. That said, I look forward to the government trying to explain our strategic imperative and will make further judgments when (or if) that occurs.


Offline Brad Sallows

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The political decision-making process goes like this:
Q: What do we want to be seen doing?
A: Peacekeeping.
Q: Where do we want to be seen doing it?
A: Someplace unfortunate.  How about Africa?
Q: What do we want to do in Africa?  Do we have anything already in place to leverage?  Give me an estimate of the situation which finds that we should be doing peacekeeping in Africa.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Quote
One of the Trudeau government's contributions to peace and stability in Africa is expected to include a revamped training mission in Niger that has been — until now — the purview of Canada's highly secretive special forces, CBC News has learned.

It will be interesting to see if and how we spin a training mission to peace keeping.  I hope CANSOF would be kind enough to lend us some vehicles and boots. And maybe uniforms and chest rigs. Same team right :)
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Offline Thucydides

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Strategically, our association is iffy... Canada may have some interests in Africa, and taking a role in peacekeeping (making?) there might be a means of employing soft power throughout the continent, like China. That said, I look forward to the government trying to explain our strategic imperative and will make further judgments when (or if) that occurs.

"Because 2016".

The sole reason for any of this is to satisfy the vanity of Gerald Butts and the Liberal back room in having a Canadian seat on the UN security council. The fact that we would be spending blood and treasure for an essentially meaningless position, in a hopelessly corrupt and ineffectual organization is irrelevant to them (even if it is very relevant to *us*).

This exercise in virtue signalling is especially puzzling, why is is so important for Canada to be validated by a bunch of third world thugs and kleptocrats?

However, don't ever expect to receive a clear answer from the LPC at any level, nor for the Legacy media to ever actually ask the hard questions. Welcome to the new decade of darkness, troops.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline jmt18325

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So we talk about expanding a mission initiated by the last government to get a seat that they failed to an it's all about Gerald Butts.  Right.....

Offline Chris Pook

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So we talk about expanding a mission initiated by the last government to get a seat that they failed to an it's all about Gerald Butts.  Right.....



 [:D
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Offline Altair

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This from "multiple sources" via CBC.ca ...A little something to orient yourself with:


weird. In the National post they are making it sound like the D.R.C is the likely choice.
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weird. In the National post they are making it sound like the D.R.C is the likely choice.
I guess it all depends on which "multiple sources" they're talking to/hearing from, compared to the CBC.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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weird. In the National post they are making it sound like the D.R.C is the likely choice.

It could always be two missions.  One training and one pseudo-peace keeping.,  that would be cool.     
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Online Good2Golf

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Reinforcing some element of stability in the region isn't necessarily a bad thing.  Niger also provides a 'relatively' secure 'launch pad' from which regional security support, be it formal UNMIwherever, or smaller multi-lateral support missions , can be conducted.

:2c:

G2G

Offline Bird_Gunner45

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"Because 2016".

The sole reason for any of this is to satisfy the vanity of Gerald Butts and the Liberal back room in having a Canadian seat on the UN security council. The fact that we would be spending blood and treasure for an essentially meaningless position, in a hopelessly corrupt and ineffectual organization is irrelevant to them (even if it is very relevant to *us*).

This exercise in virtue signalling is especially puzzling, why is is so important for Canada to be validated by a bunch of third world thugs and kleptocrats?

However, don't ever expect to receive a clear answer from the LPC at any level, nor for the Legacy media to ever actually ask the hard questions. Welcome to the new decade of darkness, troops.

Aside from your opinion and only thinly veiled hatred of anything Liberal is there any proof to back up this claim? Engagement in Africa isn't in an of itself a bad thing, especially considering we're already militarily engaged in Niger. The implementation of "soft power" as a means of gaining influence and possibly rights for Canadian firms to African resources isn't a bad thing.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2016, 09:10:17 by Bird_Gunner45 »

Online Old Sweat

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Retired Major General Lew Mackenzie cautions against pursuing a temporary seat on the Security Council in this oped piece from the Globe and Mail reproduced under the Fair Dealngs provisions of the Copyright Act.

So, Canada is on the search for a low-cost, low-risk, high-profile United Nations “peacekeeping” mission to enhance its chances to win a coveted seat on the UN Security Council in 2021.

This misguided emphasis on peacekeeping, especially given the UN’s battered reputation in this area due to a series of self-acknowledged peacekeeping disasters in the 1990s, is ill-founded. Given the considerable expense for Canada in attempting to secure a temporary two-year seat and, if successful, then participating as a non-permanent member of the council, it is time to examine a few relevant facts.

Canada did not abandon peacekeeping; peacekeeping abandoned us. During the Cold War, peacekeeping missions, with one disastrous exception, dealt with conflicts between countries. The member states involved in the conflict had delegations at the UN headquarters who could be called upon to help resolve breaches of ceasefire agreements and protocols. Post-Cold War conflicts where the UN has dared to deploy so-called peacekeepers have involved warring belligerents within countries. Factions in Somalia, Rwanda, Bosnia and many places had no delegations at the UN; as a result, the world body had little influence as violence and killings continued.

As a result of those such disasters, countries that had provided the bulk of soldiers for peacekeeping missions during the Cold War – including Canada, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Yugoslavia, Poland, Fiji, France, Britain, Australia and New Zealand – dramatically reduced their participation. In their place, countries such as Ethiopia, Bangladesh, Pakistan and Rwanda among others stepped forward to fill the gap. I have commanded soldiers from some of those countries and many are just fine; however, they are grossly underpaid and the temptation to subsidize their income by participating in illegal activities such as human trafficking, prostitution and the black market is too high for some to resist. At the same time, their parent countries are paid more than $1,300 (U.S.) a month for every soldier assigned to the UN, and while on duty, the soldiers are fed and accommodated by the UN. For some countries, UN peacekeeping has become a profitable business.

The United Nations was created in 1945 to address the issue of international peace and security. But even as the Security Council still struggles with conflicts around the world, other UN organizations that developed later are much more successful in achieving their objectives. UNICEF, the World Health Organization, the UN refugee commission and at least a dozen other UN agencies are indispensable in helping to deal with the chaos resulting from conflict and natural disasters. While it is perhaps less glamorous, enhancing Canadian support to such organizations would be more beneficial to the world than expending significant investment to try to gain a seat at the Security Council.

Canada will be competing for a council seat with the other 27 members of the ill-titled Western European and Others Group. Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Israel are the four designated “Other” countries; the remaining 24 members are European countries. They, along with the other 165 members of the General Assembly, would have to be wined and dined and lobbied by Canada to obtain the two-thirds of votes necessary for selection.

Low-risk, low-profile modest participation in UN military operations will have little impact on Canada’s chance for gaining a seat in 2021. In the early 1990s, when Canada had more than 4,600 troops in Cambodia, Cyprus, Yugoslavia, Somalia and Rwanda, that level of participation was noticed. But these days, thanks to chronic budget shrinkage, Canada is not even capable of deploying half that number, and would be challenged to sustain a contingent one-quarter that size.

If we really want to help make the world a better place, Canada should forget the obsession about obtaining an expensive temporary seat on the Security Council, where it would have little influence and, dare I say, little prestige in the face of the five veto-holding permanent members. Instead, Canada should focus on increasing support to UN agencies that have been saving and improving lives around the world.

Offline daftandbarmy

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I know guys working in Libya who talk about Niger like it's the 'hell generator' for most of Africa and the Mediterranean.

Perfect....

"The country is rated by the UN as one of the world's least-developed nations and was recently named as the worst country to live in."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-35842300
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Chris Pook

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I know guys working in Libya who talk about Niger like it's the 'hell generator' for most of Africa and the Mediterranean.

Perfect....

"The country is rated by the UN as one of the world's least-developed nations and was recently named as the worst country to live in."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-35842300

So it is the African version of Kandahar, only larger, farther away from salt water and harder to support?
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Offline daftandbarmy

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So it is the African version of Kandahar, only larger, farther away from salt water and harder to support?

And French...  :)
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

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Offline MarkOttawa

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Prof. Roland Paris, recent PM Trudeau adviser in PMO,
http://ottawacitizen.com/news/politics/top-trudeau-foreign-policy-advisor-roland-paris-heading-back-to-university-of-ottawa

responds to Lew Mackenzie:

Quote
Canada and Peacekeeping: Two Misconceptions|

We do not yet know where, when and how Prime Minister Justin Trudeau will deliver on his commitment to increase Canada's involvement in UN peace operations. As columnists and commentators begin to discuss these questions, however, two misconceptions are worth correcting.

The first is that the Trudeau government is exploring new peacekeeping opportunities in order to win a Security Council seat. Former general Lew MacKenzie made this assertion in today's Globe and Mail.

Of course, any contribution to the UN could potentially strengthen Canada's bid for a seat. However, the Prime Minister's commitment to reengage in UN operations seems to reflect his conviction that these operations play an important role in containing violence and promoting peace, and that Canada could make a useful contribution. (The Liberal election platform did not even mention running for a Security Council seat. Nor did the ministerial mandate letters. They did, however, clearly set out the peacekeeping commitment.)

The second misconception is that increasing Canada's contribution to peacekeeping necessarily involves sending a large contingent of Canadian troops into a UN mission. The UN would probably welcome any contributions from Canada, but the UN has long asked countries such as Canada to provide more specialized capabilities or "enablers" that are often missing in peacekeeping missions, in part because the developing countries that supply most of the troops for these missions tend to lack these capabilities.

Examples of such enablers include: special operations forces, transport planes and helicopters, engineering companies, field hospitals, signals companies, intelligence experts and capabilities, and police units. The UN also needs more and better training for the peacekeeping troops deployed by other countries (including training on proper treatment of civilians) as well as specialized units that can deploy quickly to help new missions get established, such as temporary headquarters teams.

In short, while the government may ultimately choose to deploy regular ground forces on a UN mission, renewing Canada's involvement in peacekeeping does not necessarily translate into large numbers of Canadian boots on the ground.
http://www.rolandparis.com/#!Canada-and-Peacekeeping-Two-Misconceptions/c21kp/57ab623a0cf273602883fcbb

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline Target Up

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I went through some old stuff and found my OP HARMONY Roto 0 RoE card (that we got two months after arrival).  Fun read, good times.  Anyone want to borrow it?
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

“In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility; but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger; stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favor'd rage.”

 Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and start slitting throats

Offline medicineman

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I went through some old stuff and found my OP HARMONY Roto 0 RoE card (that we got two months after arrival).  Fun read, good times.  Anyone want to borrow it?

Still have mine from '94...still shaking my head to this day.

MM
MM

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Offline Thucydides

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Aside from your opinion and only thinly veiled hatred of anything Liberal is there any proof to back up this claim? Engagement in Africa isn't in an of itself a bad thing, especially considering we're already militarily engaged in Niger. The implementation of "soft power" as a means of gaining influence and possibly rights for Canadian firms to African resources isn't a bad thing.

Just me and Gen Mackenzie apparently.

Is engagement in Africa really part of out National Interest? Is it serving as an economy of force mission for our forces deployed elsewhere (like Cyprus)? Do we actually have the resources to engage in the Baltic Republics, Ukraine, Iraq and in an undefined mission in Africa (indeed do we have the resources needed for the current set of missions already underway?) Are there perhaps other areas in the world like the South China Sea where our intervention might have greater impact? Outside of aiming for a Security council seat, what sort of geopolitical end state will the mission on Africa accomplish? Are we willing to commit decades of time and resources to actually build and nurture effective social, political and economic infrastructure and institutions to ensure that the aims are achieved and the situation is stabilized in the long term? Are we willing to commit enough resources and demand the ROE for a robust military engagement to degrade and destroy radicals in place if we are not going to commit for nation building?

I know there are journalists who read Army.ca, so here is a list of questions you might start asking, rather than focusing on who is wearing a shirt today...
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Just me and Gen Mackenzie apparently.

Is engagement in Africa really part of out National Interest? Is it serving as an economy of force mission for our forces deployed elsewhere (like Cyprus)? Do we actually have the resources to engage in the Baltic Republics, Ukraine, Iraq and in an undefined mission in Africa (indeed do we have the resources needed for the current set of missions already underway?) Are there perhaps other areas in the world like the South China Sea where our intervention might have greater impact? Outside of aiming for a Security council seat, what sort of geopolitical end state will the mission on Africa accomplish? Are we willing to commit decades of time and resources to actually build and nurture effective social, political and economic infrastructure and institutions to ensure that the aims are achieved and the situation is stabilized in the long term? Are we willing to commit enough resources and demand the ROE for a robust military engagement to degrade and destroy radicals in place if we are not going to commit for nation building?

I know there are journalists who read Army.ca, so here is a list of questions you might start asking, rather than focusing on who is wearing a shirt today...

Our Army etc does what the politicians tell us to do which, in turn, is largely driven by what it will take to make the Perfumed Princes look good.

So, no difference from the past couple of hundred years then.

Viz:


The Widow at Windsor

'Ave you 'eard o' the Widow at Windsor
 With a hairy gold crown on 'er 'ead?
She 'as ships on the foam -- she 'as millions at 'ome,
 An' she pays us poor beggars in red.
    (Ow, poor beggars in red!)
There's 'er nick on the cavalry 'orses,
 There's 'er mark on the medical stores --
An' 'er troopers you'll find with a fair wind be'ind
 That takes us to various wars.
    (Poor beggars! -- barbarious wars!)
       Then 'ere's to the Widow at Windsor,
        An' 'ere's to the stores an' the guns,
       The men an' the 'orses what makes up the forces
        O' Missis Victorier's sons.
       (Poor beggars! Victorier's sons!)

http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/widow_at_windsor.html
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Chris Pook

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Prof. Roland Paris, recent PM Trudeau adviser in PMO,
http://ottawacitizen.com/news/politics/top-trudeau-foreign-policy-advisor-roland-paris-heading-back-to-university-of-ottawa

responds to Lew Mackenzie:

Mark
Ottawa

To this civilian it sounds like the Professor wants a Brigade Group to deploy without the combat arms elements.  UN to provide Force Protection as well as protecting the locals?
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

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Offline MCG

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To this civilian it sounds like the Professor wants a Brigade Group to deploy without the combat arms elements.  UN to provide Force Protection as well as protecting the locals?
I suspect there would be Canadian infantry for force protection and maybe as an OMLT to a less developed nation's blue beret battalions, but otherwise it is the other parts of the brigade that are harder to source when poorer nations provide the bulk of the manpower.  Just as we have leaned on US capabilities to enable us in Afgahnistan, the UN wants a developed nation to be big brother in its blue beret theaters.

We have already committed to a field hospital for Op IMPACT, so maybe we send an engineer regiment to Africa?