Author Topic: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18  (Read 8917 times)

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Offline Lumber

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #100 on: October 12, 2018, 09:24:34 »
Reply # 67 of the topic has the entire email. The only part removed was the signature block.

Kratz,

I saw that, but the email you posted at reply #67 was actually changed the very next day. You'll notice that the original email (the one you posted) states:

Quote
CAF personnel desiring to cease shaving shall inform their Chain of Command of their intent to do so. This is not to seek permission, however, it is to ensure that a minimum 30 day period is followed in order for the Commanding Officer or their delegate (normally unit Coxn/CPO1/CWO) to review the beard and direct that the beard be removed if the attempt does not produce a satisfactory outcome.   

Which was changed to:

Quote
...all members of the CAF may now grow a beard at their own volition and are not required to submit a memo to their Chain of Command to cease shaving. CAF members do not have to advise their Chain of Command in any way should they choose to grow a beard...

and

Quote
CAF personnel may cease shaving at any time so desired by the member; additionally there is no requirement for a formal process to cease shaving.

Cheers

"Aboard his ship, there is nothing outside a captain's control." - Captain Sir Edward Pellew

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Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #101 on: October 12, 2018, 09:54:24 »
If units are running this off the rails, why don't they send out an amplifying CANFORGEN or a CAF wide email with these points?  If not following the CANFORGEN is a problem, not sure what exactly an email to the Chief chain would do.

Our unit Chief basically just said here's the order, pretty self explanatory, follow them, and ask if you have any questions. That should be a pretty easy approach, unless you are the type of leader that hides feelings of inadequacy by massively overcompensating and trying to take 'ownership' of things that you don't need to. If they really want to lead change, just grow a beard.

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #102 on: October 12, 2018, 09:58:43 »
If units are running this off the rails, why don't they send out an amplifying CANFORGEN or a CAF wide email with these points?  If not following the CANFORGEN is a problem, not sure what exactly an email to the Chief chain would do.

Because that would admit to the entire CAF that unit commanders are disregarding D&G from the CDS. Its all politics. Don't want to prove to us lowly NCOs what we already believe to be true.

Offline QV

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #103 on: October 12, 2018, 10:15:19 »
The inability for some to understand and follow this simple order is indicative of deeper issues.   

Offline Lumber

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #104 on: October 12, 2018, 10:51:25 »
I do feel like the CANFORGEN leaves room for interpretation.

I just re-read the CANFORGEN and the base chief's email, and the only thing the CANFORGEN says that is actually material regarding the actual "beard" is:

Quote
- EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, THE WEARING OF A BEARD IS AUTHORIZED FOR ALL CAF MEMBERS UPON ATTAINMENT OF THEIR OPERATIONALLY FUNCTIONAL POINT (OFP) OR HAVING COMPLETED DEVELOPMENTAL PERIOD ONE, WHICHEVER COMES LAST.

and

Quote
a. IT SHALL BE WORN WITH A MOUSTACHE,
b. IT SHALL BE NEATLY TRIMMED, ESPECIALLY ON THE LOWER NECK AND CHEEKBONES,
c. IT SHALL NOT EXCEED TWO CENTIMETERS IN BULK. A MEMBER WILL, ON THEIR OWN ACCORD OR UPON DIRECTION FROM THEIR COMMANDING OFFICER OR THEIR CO S DESIGNATE, SHAVE OFF UNSUCCESSFUL ATTEMPTS TO GROW A BEARD.

But some of the "direction" coming from the base chief just doesn't seem to be supported by what little is written in the CANFORGEN, namely:

The email from the base chief states that acceptable styles of beard include short stubble, medium stubble, long stubble, and full beard. However, no where in the CANFORGEN does it say that short, medium or long "stubble" is an acceptable definition of a "beard", which means that someone at some point made that assumption.

Further, the existing dress regs don't say anything about needing permission from the chain of command, a memo, and needing a beard suitability assessment after 30 days, yet we all accepted that that was the accepted practice, did we not? Why now has that rule been removed? It doesn't say anything about this in the CANFORGEN, it just says "everyone is authorized", so someone at some point had to make that assumption. I mean, there are a lot of things that we are authorized to do, but still have steps to follow before doing them.
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“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #105 on: October 12, 2018, 10:55:25 »
Lets also be clear the Unit/Formation CWOs have no authority to issue direction on their own. They generally do not have any subordinates. They are advisors.

The authority to Command belongs to Commanding Officers/Commanders, at all levels.

Therefore, if CANFORGENs are being ignored/misinterpreted, lets lay the blme where it belongs- with officers who are not doing their job properly.

Offline Dimsum

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #106 on: October 12, 2018, 10:57:35 »
I feel this is apt for some reason:

https://youtu.be/N16YkjFVAyE?t=160
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #107 on: October 12, 2018, 11:16:27 »
Lets also be clear the Unit/Formation CWOs have no authority to issue direction on their own. They generally do not have any subordinates. They are advisors.

The authority to Command belongs to Commanding Officers/Commanders, at all levels.

Therefore, if CANFORGENs are being ignored/misinterpreted, lets lay the blme where it belongs- with officers who are not doing their job properly.

Correct. My Commanding Officers delegated dress matters to me and I could say yes/no to certain housekeeping points. I could not go off on my own without his say so.
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Offline runormal

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #108 on: October 12, 2018, 12:12:49 »
Say I'm your chain of command. What if I just don't support your memo? Or if you grow your beard and after 30 days I say nope don't like it shave it off and don't attempt again.

Are you going to be okay with that, especially if your peers are allowed to grow theirs?

I'm also hearing young officers have been getting a hard time in certain chains of command because their shaven CO's don't like it.

I'd like to see this beard email myself.

I guess a large part of this is that i'm a reservist. It's not impacting my general day to day life, which is probably causing a bit of disconnect to the actual issue that some personel are facing. My hope, is that by the time my 30 day window "ticks" that my COC has "un-****ed" themselves. I will be quite pissed in 30 days that they come to me and say "Cpl XXX" shave that beard off, CLEAN SHAVEN for rememberance day ;D".

For me, it took 30 seconds to send my memo up the COC, so it's a "whatever" issue. Hopefully, by then the dust will have settled and that'll be that. It's less work for me to send up a memo, then it is to argue with my COC.

Is it is a complete waste of my time? - 100%
Is it going to achieve anything? - No
Is it a failure of leadership - Absoutely..

I don't really have anything else to add and  I don't disagree with trooper142 or Humphrey Bogart.


« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 12:23:55 by runormal »

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #109 on: October 12, 2018, 13:05:01 »
If units are running this off the rails, why don't they send out an amplifying CANFORGEN or a CAF wide email with these points?  If not following the CANFORGEN is a problem, not sure what exactly an email to the Chief chain would do

I think that a couple of thousand 'redress of grievance' submissions, within a month or so, would do a much better job of sending a message up the chain :)
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline NEM3sis

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #110 on: October 12, 2018, 17:11:38 »
Would be nice if RSMs were to share the info contained in that email.
We had a town hall with Group command last week and group Chief was clear that you either grow a beard or you don't and that the only acceptable beard is as per current dress manual policy.

I can't grow a beard but my face would be very thankful if I could shave every other day instead of just shaving skin everyday.

And I am not gonna risk shaving every other day if I don't get a thumbs up thru official channels...I don't think quoting army.ca to my RSM would end up working in my favor.

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #111 on: October 12, 2018, 17:30:25 »
If units are running this off the rails, why don't they send out an amplifying CANFORGEN or a CAF wide email with these points?  If not following the CANFORGEN is a problem, not sure what exactly an email to the Chief chain would do.

Our unit Chief basically just said here's the order, pretty self explanatory, follow them, and ask if you have any questions. That should be a pretty easy approach, unless you are the type of leader that hides feelings of inadequacy by massively overcompensating and trying to take 'ownership' of things that you don't need to. If they really want to lead change, just grow a beard.

The irony is that the best way to nip other systemic issues like Op HONOUR, Harassment, Veterans Issues, etc is to deal with small issues like this.  If Commanding Officers can't even be trusted to let a man grow a freaking beard, how can we be trusted to deal with bigger issues?

I can grow a full beard in a matter of weeks and I've done it multiple times since I've been in.  Give me eight weeks and I can look like a Boer Commando (my Dutch ancestors would be proud)  It has had zero impact on my ability to do my job and I can shave it if required at a moments notice.

People who want to grow big beards will come to realize they are also huge a pain in the butt to maintain.  For one thing, they itch like crazy at times and those beard hairs tingle like crazy with the slightest breeze.  Secondly, eating is a pain in the butt as food often gets all over your lovely face coiff!  Nothing worse than eating one of the many liquid rations we have and having your beard smell like omelette and salsa for a week straight!

Do the Boer Commandos proud and grow a big beard though!  General Cronje will smile upon you!




Offline PPCLI Guy

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #112 on: October 12, 2018, 19:32:58 »
The irony is that the best way to nip other systemic issues like Op HONOUR, Harassment, Veterans Issues, etc is to deal with small issues like this.  If Commanding Officers can't even be trusted to let a man grow a freaking beard, how can we be trusted to deal with bigger issues?



Yup!
"The higher the rank, the more necessary it is that boldness should be accompanied by a reflective mind....for with increase in rank it becomes always a matter less of self-sacrifice and more a matter of the preservation of others, and the good of the whole."

Karl von Clausewitz

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #113 on: October 12, 2018, 19:50:54 »
The irony is that the best way to nip other systemic issues like Op HONOUR, Harassment, Veterans Issues, etc is to deal with small issues like this.  If Commanding Officers can't even be trusted to let a man grow a freaking beard, how can we be trusted to deal with bigger issues?

So, have you got something against (people who identify as) women growing beards?  :tsktsk: ;)
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #114 on: October 12, 2018, 19:55:59 »
So, have you got something against (people who identify as) women growing beards?  :tsktsk: ;)

You are right, my GBA+ training should have taught me that beardforgen is a gender neutral initiative  :nod:

Offline standingdown

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #115 on: October 12, 2018, 20:14:36 »
Something I've always wondered. Where does all this crap start?

Direction comes down, where (or with whom) does it start to go wrong usually? Many of you posting in this thread are officers, and several are senior officers and maybe even a GOFO or two. What gives?

Pretty sure it's not a Capt or Lt(N) calling the shots. So is it really coming from Commanders/COs or is it starting with the CWO and no one is stopping them when things get out of hand?

An honest question from a humble broom pusher...


Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #116 on: October 13, 2018, 03:26:09 »
I was hoping to have the original email from the CAFCWO! Adds ammunition to a members argument if they have today defend themselves with their chain!


But, like recognized/discussed earlier in the thread, the CAFCWO is not the Commander who signed off.  While he/she is the CAFCWO, they do not outrank a Officer Commanding a Command, nor a Commanding Officer.  That 'clarification' needs to come from the actual authority, which not to diminish NCOs, Snr NCOs, Warrant Officers and Petty Officers, but we never are the Commander who decides on policy.  My Wing Dress Instructions are signed by the Wing Commander, not the Wing CWO.
Do I love my job?  No.

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #117 on: October 13, 2018, 03:40:17 »
I do feel like the CANFORGEN leaves room for interpretation.

I just re-read the CANFORGEN and the base chief's email, and the only thing the CANFORGEN says that is actually material regarding the actual "beard" is:

and

But some of the "direction" coming from the base chief just doesn't seem to be supported by what little is written in the CANFORGEN, namely:

The email from the base chief states that acceptable styles of beard include short stubble, medium stubble, long stubble, and full beard. However, no where in the CANFORGEN does it say that short, medium or long "stubble" is an acceptable definition of a "beard", which means that someone at some point made that assumption.

But, the CANFORGEN does say "up to 2cm in length", and that a mbr can cease and/or start shaving again at any time.  Base on that, I can have facial hair anywhere between "clean shaven" and "2cm in length" and tided up on the cheeks and neck.  How much direction to we need to define "clean shaven to 2cm long"? 

If I get a take off time of 0800, and a land time of 1600...do I also need to be told "to be clear you will be flying at 0900, 1000, 1100, 1200, 1300, 1400 and 1500hrs", or can common sense dictate that 'from 0800 to 1600' includes those hours as well? 

Do I love my job?  No.

But does it afford me the ability to go on lavish vacations and buy anything I want?  Also no.

Offline trooper142

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #118 on: October 13, 2018, 04:48:20 »
But, like recognized/discussed earlier in the thread, the CAFCWO is not the Commander who signed off.  While he/she is the CAFCWO, they do not outrank a Officer Commanding a Command, nor a Commanding Officer.  That 'clarification' needs to come from the actual authority, which not to diminish NCOs, Snr NCOs, Warrant Officers and Petty Officers, but we never are the Commander who decides on policy.  My Wing Dress Instructions are signed by the Wing Commander, not the Wing CWO.


Just my  :2c:, but one would think if he made it to the level of CAFCWO, he might understand that decisions on policy come from the officer side of the house. Equally so, one could argue the email was sent out with the blessing of the CDS, who ultimately decided on this change in policy.

I don't know about you, but if I made a decision that was pretty clear and I hear of my subordinates actively disobeying said order, i would be making sure it's clarified in short order.

I can only imagine, and I am guessing here, that the CDS delegates this to the CAFCWO, but maybe I'm wrong?

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #119 on: October 13, 2018, 08:51:12 »

Just my  :2c:, but one would think if he made it to the level of CAFCWO, he might understand that decisions on policy come from the officer side of the house. Equally so, one could argue the email was sent out with the blessing of the CDS, who ultimately decided on this change in policy.

I've underlined what I think is the important part.

Quote
I don't know about you, but if I made a decision that was pretty clear and I hear of my subordinates actively disobeying said order, i would be making sure it's clarified in short order.

Correct.  However, if you were a Troop Leader, and your Patrol Commanders were not following your direction, would you direct your Junior Crew Commanders to rectify the situation? 

There is a CWO/CPO "net" (I'll refrain from calling it CofC).  Yes, the CAFCWO is the top of that ladder.  Yes, the CWO/CPOs in Senior Appointments are 'subordinate' to the CAFCWO, but the CAFCWO isn't their Commander;  the RCAF CWO is the NCM Advisor to his/her Commander, the RCAF Commander - not the CAF CWO.  This shouldn't really be a new thing to anyone in the CAF;  Tp Ldr's have Tp WOs to advise/assist them, OCs have SSMs to advise/assist them, COs have RSMs to advise/assist them.  If the OC goes down on the 2 way range, who is the next in line for Command?  I think the SSM is fairly far down the line for taking over command of the Sqn.

From earlier in the thread, a few posts starting with G2G and Infanteer that highlight the Commander/CWO-CPO relation and difference in Command/enforcement.

https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,129147.msg1550449.html#msg1550449
« Last Edit: October 13, 2018, 09:08:28 by Eye In The Sky »
Do I love my job?  No.

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Offline meni0n

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #120 on: October 13, 2018, 09:30:17 »
Just had parade night yesterday and the SSM came out to clarify the unit's position on the beards. Their direction is to put in a memo which would have a starting date and 30 days after the starting date a beard "committee" would inspect the beard to make sure it's good. He said it's basically to stop people from shaving and restarting their beards.

I am very certain that's really against what the CANFORGEN stated. The only thing I see in the CANFORGEN for length of beard is that it should be under 2cm and I can start growing one without the need to write a memo. Next move, I'll start off writing to the chain to ask them to clarify their position and then if it still stands, either start coming in with a beard or put in a grievance I guess to stop them from making up arbitrary policy.

Offline Remius

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #121 on: October 13, 2018, 09:43:42 »
Just had parade night yesterday and the SSM came out to clarify the unit's position on the beards. Their direction is to put in a memo which would have a starting date and 30 days after the starting date a beard "committee" would inspect the beard to make sure it's good. He said it's basically to stop people from shaving and restarting their beards.

I am very certain that's really against what the CANFORGEN stated. The only thing I see in the CANFORGEN for length of beard is that it should be under 2cm and I can start growing one without the need to write a memo. Next move, I'll start off writing to the chain to ask them to clarify their position and then if it still stands, either start coming in with a beard or put in a grievance I guess to stop them from making up arbitrary policy.

Keep it simple.  People can choose to grow a beard.  It becomes obvious when people do.  Immediate COC can monitor success rate or not.  Grooming standards just like haircuts and moustaches are enforced.  Only our RSM has been given authority as delegated by the CO to order someone to remove and start over. 

Our unit is keeping it simple.  We have better things to do.
Optio

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #122 on: October 13, 2018, 11:17:43 »
If anyone has DWAN access, go to the ACMIS page for the dress committee. It has some excellent backgrounders on many Army dress decisions, but more specifically a glorious briefing note in favour of allowing beards. The MWO that prepared it is an absolute wordsmith.

Offline Dimsum

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #123 on: October 13, 2018, 11:46:56 »
He said it's basically to stop people from shaving and restarting their beards.

I am very certain that's really against what the CANFORGEN stated.

It is.  Our unit CWO said the opposite - people can shave and restart according to the CANFORGEN. 
« Last Edit: October 13, 2018, 18:15:28 by Dimsum »
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #124 on: October 13, 2018, 15:58:16 »
Do we need to shave everyday?  That’s what most people want to know. 

Why can’t they just say “you don’t need to shave everyday”?

This shave and restart stuff is nonsense.