Author Topic: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18  (Read 21763 times)

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Offline Tcm621

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #175 on: October 17, 2018, 12:45:55 »
I did an Ex in Norway earlier this year. 

The guard manning the entrance to the base had a ponytail down his back, a goatee, maybe an earring in too.  He was also very sharp, professional ... he looked like he could sleep-walk thru our FORCE test.

I think they're focusing on the right things over there...

That has a lot to do with it. If you are a 25 year old with a huge gut that hangs over your pants and you waddle when you walk, no about of grooming will make you look "military".

Offline Quirky

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #176 on: October 17, 2018, 14:35:07 »
That has a lot to do with it. If you are a 25 year old with a huge gut that hangs over your pants and you waddle when you walk, no about of grooming will make you look "military".

I find fat troops far more unprofessional and undisciplined than those who choose not to shave everyday.

If you are going to argue that if your appearance via stubble and long hair looks un-soldier like, then I’ll say being a fat wobbly slob is at the same or worse level.

Offline CountDC

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #177 on: October 17, 2018, 14:50:57 »
what I see is people reading only the canforgen and using their own wanted interpretation of it.  The only change this has made to the dress regs is that everyone is now allowed to grow a beard.  Guess the army finally gave up trying to make the navy be like them and decided to join the dark side.  The change is to the CANFORGEN Ref C Section 2, 5a(3)(a).

A part that everyone seems to miss is:

(d) When a beard is grown or removed, identification documents shall be replaced in accordance with security regulations.

“non-commissioned officer (NCO)” means a member holding the rank of sergeant or corporal.

QR&O's

Offline Old EO Tech

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #178 on: October 17, 2018, 15:07:13 »
what I see is people reading only the canforgen and using their own wanted interpretation of it.  The only change this has made to the dress regs is that everyone is now allowed to grow a beard.  Guess the army finally gave up trying to make the navy be like them and decided to join the dark side.  The change is to the CANFORGEN Ref C Section 2, 5a(3)(a).

A part that everyone seems to miss is:

(d) When a beard is grown or removed, identification documents shall be replaced in accordance with security regulations.

Yes and the "security regulations"  say that beards are NOT a major change in appearance and no new ID is required.


Offline ballz

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #179 on: October 18, 2018, 08:40:17 »
If anyone has DWAN access, go to the ACMIS page for the dress committee. It has some excellent backgrounders on many Army dress decisions, but more specifically a glorious briefing note in favour of allowing beards. The MWO that prepared it is an absolute wordsmith.

Can you post the ACIMS link?
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Offline hattrick72

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #181 on: October 24, 2018, 01:57:12 »
I spent some time in the dress manual 2017 version and it doesn't mention shaving within a 24 hour period. Where is that regulation? I could have swore I saw a paragraph stating you had to be clean shaven every day. Wasn't in chapter 17 of the QR&O either.

Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #182 on: January 07, 2019, 22:04:59 »
Regarding the OFP bit.  Is it your initial OFP? 

Not that I am gunning for the ZZ Top look, but I am on my 3rd trade, under this policy would I have been expected to shave off my (theoretical) glorious beard with every OT? 

Just something that came up in conversation the other day.

Does anyone have any insight as to why they decided on DP1/OFP?  Seriously what's the thought process in making someone wait until they reach their OFP.  Seems unnecessary.


Offline JesseWZ

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #183 on: January 08, 2019, 00:16:38 »
Regarding the OFP bit.  Is it your initial OFP? 

Does anyone have any insight as to why they decided on DP1/OFP?  Seriously what's the thought process in making someone wait until they reach their OFP.  Seems unnecessary.


I gotta wonder if they are still stressing the uniformity in all things through BMQ, SQ (and Navy/AF equivalents and trades training) and you get to earn your freedom (with facial hair) by passing your QL3/DP1?
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Offline LunchMeat

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #184 on: January 08, 2019, 00:41:26 »
I gotta wonder if they are still stressing the uniformity in all things through BMQ, SQ (and Navy/AF equivalents and trades training) and you get to earn your freedom (with facial hair) by passing your QL3/DP1?

They are.

Recruits are not permitted beards at CFLRS, Schools, Training Coys etc. As the CANFORGEN states, you must meet OFP in your trade to wear a beard.

Also, the NAVORD on Beards has not changed or been rescinded. So whatever restrictions or requirements that  utimposed, Navy pers must adhere.

Regarding the OFP bit.  Is it your initial OFP? 

Not that I am gunning for the ZZ Top look, but I am on my 3rd trade, under this policy would I have been expected to shave off my (theoretical) glorious beard with every OT? 

Just something that came up in conversation the other day.

Does anyone have any insight as to why they decided on DP1/OFP?  Seriously what's the thought process in making someone wait until they reach their OFP.  Seems unnecessary.



Technically if you OT, you no longer meet OFP in your new trade therefore, no beard for you.

Whether or not your School staff or new unit enforces that for remusters is another can of worms.

Personally, I have witnessed remusters given slack on that (pending they were already OFP and wearing a beard of course).
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Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #185 on: January 08, 2019, 06:45:12 »
I gotta wonder if they are still stressing the uniformity in all things through BMQ, SQ (and Navy/AF equivalents and trades training) and you get to earn your freedom (with facial hair) by passing your QL3/DP1?

Unless you have a religious reason to wear a beard.

Some trades don’t reach OFP for years, seems silly to restrict it to that.  Not that I’m growing a beard, I’d look like the wolf man.  I’m just trying to understand the thought process behind the OFP decision. 


« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 06:54:41 by Dolphin_Hunter »

Offline Lumber

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #186 on: January 08, 2019, 07:59:17 »
Some trades don’t reach OFP for years, seems silly to restrict it to that.  Not that I’m growing a beard, I’d look like the wolf man.  I’m just trying to understand the thought process behind the OFP decision.

Yea, like NWO (MARS). We don't reach OFP until we are NOPQ qualified, which I reached approximately 7 years into my career (you could reach it in 3 years if you are a DEO or CEOTP officer). I assure you, all of us started sporting beards after our initial naval phase training (MARS II, which is the first course you do after Basic. It's essentially our first intro to "what is the navy"?).
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #187 on: January 08, 2019, 20:59:42 »

Also, the NAVORD on Beards has not changed or been rescinded. So whatever restrictions or requirements that  utimposed, Navy pers must adhere.


I love when the CDS issues direction that those GOFO/Senior Officers subordinate to him feel cool about ignoring.  It sets the example for all subordinate to them to use when asked 'why aren't you following this order/policy?

 ;D
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Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #188 on: January 09, 2019, 13:11:16 »

Also, the NAVORD on Beards has not changed or been rescinded. So whatever restrictions or requirements that  utimposed, Navy pers must adhere.


Don't have DWAN access, but off the top of my head, the NAVFORGEN basically said, if you are at a sea going unit (or otherwise may have to wear the air pack for fire fighting) you need to be clean shaven.

CANFORGEN basically says everyone in the CAF can now grow beards to the old Navy standard (barring specific operational requirements), so there isn't any conflict.  The RCN has put down a single standard for the operational units, so pretty straightforward.  Otherwise every single ship/navy unit would have their own set of rules, and that would be kind of dumb, as well as confusing as you jump between ships.

People will argue about the validity of the logic, but even if some people get a seal with a beard, some won't be able to. Being clean shaven will never interfere with the seal, so it's erring on the side of caution. Best case, your seal fails, and you are able to safely get out of the area. Smoke spreads really quickly though, so it may take you a while, and smoke inhalation sucks.  Now you've left the rest of your team sitting around waiting for a replacement, giving the fire time to grow, and generally putting everyone at greater risk.  Worse case you run out of air in the fire zone, become a lesson to others, and have your wingers risking their lives to save you.

Fires happen on ships all the time, have been involved with a half dozen myself, and there are tonnes of near misses. The entire surface fleet is currently about 25 years old, (with some older), so even with the pretty active safety program, the failure rates leading to fires is only going to go up, so there is very good operational reasons to keep people clean shaven and trained to respond to fires. My  :2c: (based on actual fire science, performance of the BAs with beards, and first hand experience with multiple fires on ships).

Offline cld617

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #189 on: January 09, 2019, 13:39:00 »
Fires happen on ships all the time, have been involved with a half dozen myself, and there are tonnes of near misses. The entire surface fleet is currently about 25 years old, (with some older), so even with the pretty active safety program, the failure rates leading to fires is only going to go up, so there is very good operational reasons to keep people clean shaven and trained to respond to fires. My  :2c: (based on actual fire science, performance of the BAs with beards, and first hand experience with multiple fires on ships).

If the air med folks have approved CF18 pilots for wearing beards, there really isn't a safety argument to be made for not allowing beards with firefighting gear.

Offline Dimsum

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #190 on: January 09, 2019, 13:54:43 »
If the air med folks have approved CF18 pilots for wearing beards, there really isn't a safety argument to be made for not allowing beards with firefighting gear.

That's now extended to all aircrew, past the OFP yadayada.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #191 on: January 09, 2019, 15:58:47 »
Are there any/many differences between say, the MB1 smoke mask we have on the Aurora fleet to the 'air pack' or other smoke masks in the RCN?
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Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #192 on: January 09, 2019, 16:54:10 »
If the air med folks have approved CF18 pilots for wearing beards, there really isn't a safety argument to be made for not allowing beards with firefighting gear.

Thats interesting.  Sounds like a town hall question to me.
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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #193 on: January 09, 2019, 21:13:04 »
If the air med folks have approved CF18 pilots for wearing beards, there really isn't a safety argument to be made for not allowing beards with firefighting gear.

Our masks are individually fitted.  Is it the same for firefighting gear?

Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #194 on: January 09, 2019, 21:36:36 »
If the air med folks have approved CF18 pilots for wearing beards, there really isn't a safety argument to be made for not allowing beards with firefighting gear.

CF18 pilots aren't operating in a superheated toxic atmosphere, nor are they sweating their *** off carrying around a bunch of gear while climbing up and down ladders.  That's apples and oranges, and really not relevant.  You also are grabbing a generic off the shelf mask and hope you fit a medium.  Otherwise unless you get a prepositioned small or large you are SOL.

They did an informal trial when the air packs showed up with beards; they ran a few groups through and the ones that could get a seal lost it when they started moving around and sweating. They blew through their air packs in 10 minutes in the trainer; that is completely useless, and long enough to get into a spot where you don't have enough time to get to safety.  You run out of air, you either take off your mask or suffocate, and good luck if you are stuck in a fire zone full of smoke at that point.  It's compartmentalized enough that anything other than the big machinery spaces fill up really quick, so there won't be much of an air pocket left (if any).

Can some people maybe keep a beard trimmed short and keep a good seal?  Sure.  Can everyone do that reliably?  Nope.

Risk is real, and includes death (for the bearded numpty, as well as the people that have to get his *** out of there).  What is the upside to overruling a very real safety concern?

The last time the Navy got in a real shooting match was Korea, but we have fires all the time in peacetime at all levels of operational readiness.  I like having an option to have a beard, but wouldn't think of being anything but clean shaven if I was on a ship (for both my own safety and for the rest of the team).  Seems like a pretty common sense restriction to me, but you do you I guess.

Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #195 on: January 09, 2019, 22:10:07 »
Can I assume beards are permitted onboard naval vessels for religious reasons?

If so, are these individuals treated as liabilities? 

I get the impression the RCN feels that everyone with a beard is a liability in a firefighting situation.




Offline Lumber

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #196 on: January 10, 2019, 07:13:21 »
Can I assume beards are permitted onboard naval vessels for religious reasons?

If so, are these individuals treated as liabilities? 

I get the impression the RCN feels that everyone with a beard is a liability in a firefighting situation.

Funny... I don't actually know the asnwer to this question. I don't recall ever having sailed without someone wearing a bear for religious reasons, but that could be because they we're always clean shaven while I was on ship with them. That being said, at least from the Wardroom side of things, I don't think I have ever sailed or served with  Sikh naval officer.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #197 on: January 10, 2019, 08:45:48 »
Don't have DWAN access, but off the top of my head, the NAVFORGEN basically said, if you are at a sea going unit (or otherwise may have to wear the air pack for fire fighting) you need to be clean shaven.

CANFORGEN basically says everyone in the CAF can now grow beards to the old Navy standard (barring specific operational requirements), so there isn't any conflict.  The RCN has put down a single standard for the operational units, so pretty straightforward.  Otherwise every single ship/navy unit would have their own set of rules, and that would be kind of dumb, as well as confusing as you jump between ships.

People will argue about the validity of the logic, but even if some people get a seal with a beard, some won't be able to. Being clean shaven will never interfere with the seal, so it's erring on the side of caution. Best case, your seal fails, and you are able to safely get out of the area. Smoke spreads really quickly though, so it may take you a while, and smoke inhalation sucks.  Now you've left the rest of your team sitting around waiting for a replacement, giving the fire time to grow, and generally putting everyone at greater risk.  Worse case you run out of air in the fire zone, become a lesson to others, and have your wingers risking their lives to save you.

Fires happen on ships all the time, have been involved with a half dozen myself, and there are tonnes of near misses. The entire surface fleet is currently about 25 years old, (with some older), so even with the pretty active safety program, the failure rates leading to fires is only going to go up, so there is very good operational reasons to keep people clean shaven and trained to respond to fires. My  :2c: (based on actual fire science, performance of the BAs with beards, and first hand experience with multiple fires on ships).

Great info for those of us who've never sailed, thanks!
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Offline Furniture

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #198 on: January 10, 2019, 09:14:48 »
I get the impression the RCN feels that everyone with a beard is a liability in a firefighting situation.

The RCN has through experience and testing learned their lessons, and takes safety very seriously.

During the PRO fire we could barely keep up with the demand for bottles, if we burned through more bottles so LS Bloggins could sport a cool beard showing him as special individual things may have turned out differently.

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #199 on: January 10, 2019, 09:24:28 »
IIRC, PRO was down to 4 bottles of air at one point. It was that close.