Author Topic: Army commander vows to issue special order to weed out extremists in the ranks  (Read 18129 times)

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Forgot another part from the CF Admin Law Manual:

CHAPTER 14 - ADMINISTRATIVE ACTION - SECTION 1

4. Career Management  Procedural fairness has a limited application in respect of career management decisions because the outcomes of such decisions are not considered to be sanctions or penalties and such decisions are not being made as a result of any misconduct or inadequate performance on the part of the member. The vast majority of these types of decisions are made routinely and are accepted by the affected members, notwithstanding that the individual members may not have been consulted or informed prior to the decision being made. Those few members who disagree with a career management decision are entitled to apply for redress through the CF grievance process.  [included only to sp "contrast" to next para]

6. Administrative Sanction In contrast to career management, procedural fairness plays a significant role when serious administrative sanctions are being taken against a CF member. Such sanctions can impair a member’s career progression or, ultimately, lead to the termination of the member’s military service career by way of compulsory release. Accordingly, as the administrative sanctions become progressively more severe, procedural fairness requirements are enhanced for the benefit and protection of the member.

Offline LittleBlackDevil

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and antifa, Communists, Warrior society?

Apparently this is not a problem, and this is the one of the issues I have ... why is only "right wing" extremism being singled out and why is "left wing" extremism not a problem?

This is not just a CAF thing. In the US, there are riots and burning of building happened in several cities at the behest of Antifa and other left-wing extremists. A group of them even occupied a part of downtown Seattle and harassed residents. Yet law enforcement is telling us these are not threats and only the bogeyman of "right wing extremists" is what warrants attention and concern. I say bogeyman because I am not convinced that "right wing extremists" actually exist in any significant numbers given their lack of activity compared to the left-wing groups.

Offline LittleBlackDevil

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Here's another debate question:

Are we seeing more because there is more, or are we just better at recognizing it?

Or I would offer a third alternative ... are we seeing more because the range of acceptable political opinion has shifted and the definition of what constitutes "right wing extremism" has also shifted, therefore capturing many groups and views that were not deemed dangerous or criminal as recently as a year or two ago?

Offline reveng

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Apparently this is not a problem, and this is the one of the issues I have ... why is only "right wing" extremism being singled out and why is "left wing" extremism not a problem?

This is not just a CAF thing. In the US, there are riots and burning of building happened in several cities at the behest of Antifa and other left-wing extremists. A group of them even occupied a part of downtown Seattle and harassed residents. Yet law enforcement is telling us these are not threats and only the bogeyman of "right wing extremists" is what warrants attention and concern. I say bogeyman because I am not convinced that "right wing extremists" actually exist in any significant numbers given their lack of activity compared to the left-wing groups.

Perhaps right-wing extremists are more likely to conduct lone wolf style attacks (shootings), whereas the left wing extremists operate in mobs and mostly smash/burn things?

It may be easier to attribute the motivations of individual acts, and harder to attribute the motivations of large groups (especially if they operate among legitimate protesters)

The left also seems to control the narrative, and from a military standpoint, there probably are more right-wing extremists than antifa types...

 :2c:

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Apparently this is not a problem, and this is the one of the issues I have ... why is only "right wing" extremism being singled out and why is "left wing" extremism not a problem?



Look to Ottawa and our 'political leadership' for the answer to that one... :nod:

Offline LittleBlackDevil

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Good points, reveng.

Perhaps right-wing extremists are more likely to conduct lone wolf style attacks (shootings), whereas the left wing extremists operate in mobs and mostly smash/burn things?

One would think this from the way that the media portrays things, but aside from the very highly popularized Anders Brevik case, I can't think of any others that truly fit the "right wing extremist" narrative.

Alexandre Bissonnette has been portrayed as "far-right extremist" because he targeted Muslims, however police said they found no content created by the killer that “could link him to the white supremacist or the neo-Nazi ideology.” Bissonet did lots of google searches of Donald Trump and the Ecole Polytechnique massacre but do google searches = adherence to any ideology? From his behaviour it sounds like mental health and prescription of the wrong medications played a larger role than any political beliefs. The fact that I did some google searches on Bissonet and Brevik this morning mean I'm a right-wing extremist? I sure hope not!

If you look at the Wikipedia page for "massacres in Canada", aside from Bissonette, you've got Minassian in the Toronto Van Attack ("incel" not right-wing politics), and then the rest are biker gang shootings, an estranged husband shooting up the wedding party of his wife's second marriage. NB Minassian washed out of Canadian Army training after 16 days.

That Wikipedia page does not include the 2014 shootings at Parliament Hill which certainly wasn't "right wing extremism" it was Islamic extremism but that is not considered a matter of concern for the CDS (not that it should be -- I think guys like that would never make it through training, like Minassian, plus I also think these cases have other underlying issues that should be addressed but not necessitating a purge of those with unpopular political or religious views).

It may be easier to attribute the motivations of individual acts, and harder to attribute the motivations of large groups (especially if they operate among legitimate protesters)

This is no doubt true. Very good point.

The left also seems to control the narrative, and from a military standpoint, there probably are more right-wing extremists than antifa types...

I think this is absolutely the case, and this is really the crux of the issue. The media, and therefore the narrative, is almost completely controlled by (at its most moderate) left-of-centre. Therefore these people downplay or even approve of the likes of antifa, whereas if news articles on Axenandre Bissonette are anything to go by, are so anti-right that they view even very moderate guys like Ben Shapiro as "extremists" (watching videos of Shapiro was one of the items cited to say that Bissonette was a right-wing extremist).

Offline Infanteer

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It's funny that folks are eager to put "mainstream media" as "left of centre."  Perhaps the problem is where folks are choosing to put centre of mass.

We do not have a "far left extremism" problem in the CAF, and I've yet to see a case where "growth of antifa ideology/communist viewpoints/etc/etc threatens the good order and discipline of the CAF."  Those of you twisting your underwear in a knot here are just creating a red herring. 

However, we do have specific cases of members identifying with nativist/supremist ideologies.  And there are enough serious case studies in the ranks of our allies to cause concern.  The recent incidents and trends in the U.S. and German Armed Forces give us good understanding as to where this can lead if left unchecked by leadership.
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Eye In The Sky

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We do not have a known/exposed "far left extremism" problem in the CAF

Like COVID 19, you don't know until you know.   :Tin-Foil-Hat:

With the 'control of the message' stuff lately from...CBC, others...I'm not sure if a case was discovered, it would be widely publicized anyways. 

Offline Brihard

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A few thoughts...

First- on the whole right/left thing; I think the reason - in this context - that we hear about right wing extremism more than left is simply because dds are we aren't going to find (m)any of the latter serving in the military. Not saying it'll never happen, but those particular extremist views are unlikely to be aligned with military service in Canada. On the flip side, those with right wing extremists views do seem in some cases to serve int he military- either as a related part of their personal values, or in some cases specifically to acquire skills/knowledge. Military service has been explicitly advocated in right wing circles as a way to prepare for whatever violent conflict it is they imagine is coming. It's not hard to quickly come up with a list of names of former (or even current) CAF members who have been publicly outed as having such views, either in the course of criminal investigations (Matthews, Hurren), or through being 'outed' or doxxed by thsoe who do such things (the MARLANT 'Proud Boys', the other sailor I believe out west, etc). In the absence of real data, the numerous anecdotes at least cause us to cast our eye in a certain direction.

Regarding releasing these individuals from CAF, procedural fairness, due process, etc... There's a different standard applied to terminating employment than there is to being charged with an offense.  It's very much in CAF's (and arguably Canada's) interest to be able to efficiently release people from military service who don't serve the unique needs thereof, or who are otherwise an undue liability or administrative burden. The courts have tested the administrative release process, and it holds up. Given the real security concerns attendant to people who have extremist political views of any bent, I think it's necessary and appropriate that the upper chain of command support and champion efforts to clear the ranks of those with an ethos contradictory to what the military requires. Bear in mind that any further obstacle to releasing these members who apply equally to those we might categorize as '****birds', the guys who all have known and worked with who just shouldn't be in but have somehow not quite yet managed to get kicked out. These are still individuals that take up positions, that create administrative burdens, and that harm the efficiency and effectiveness of the total force. Some greater degree of protection of extremists from the consequences of their choices would also extend protections to all of these other individuals. Just bear that in mind. Any employer, generally speaking, can with sufficient documentation properly articulate and defend the termination of employment of someone who is known to espouse and/or act on views contrary to the employers principles and ethics. CAF is really no different, although a CAF member gets considerably more bureaucratic protection than employees for many other organizations would see.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Infanteer

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Brihard said it better than I above.

Like COVID 19, you don't know until you know.   :Tin-Foil-Hat:

Why would someone who feels the state is corrupt, oppressive and/or racist join the one organization of the state that has a monopoly on violence?
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Infanteer

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Regarding releasing these individuals from CAF, procedural fairness, due process, etc... There's a different standard applied to terminating employment than there is to being charged with an offense.  It's very much in CAF's (and arguably Canada's) interest to be able to efficiently release people from military service who don't serve the unique needs thereof, or who are otherwise an undue liability or administrative burden. The courts have tested the administrative release process, and it holds up.

Correct.  And people who whine that "Admin Measures" are another form of punishment need to understand this.

Break the law (Code of Service Discipline) - military justice system
Conduct does not meet the bar set by policy and regulations - administrative measures
Performance does not meet the bar set by policy and regulations - administrative measures

Three distinct things, and a combination of the first and either of the latter two may be required in some cases.
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Jarnhamar

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Quote from: Infanteer
Why would someone who feels the state is corrupt, oppressive and/or racist join the one organization of the state that has a monopoly on violence?

Perhaps along the lines of the same attitude from members who incessantly disparage NCOs, Officers and the CAF in general but like the pay check.
There are no wolves on Fenris

Offline Infanteer

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Perhaps along the lines of the same attitude from members who incessantly disparage NCOs, Officers and the CAF in general but like the pay check.

That isn't a political ideology, that is a personal attitude that they are good to go and everyone else is incompetent.  Most of the times this isn't matched by reality - in fact it is generally the other way around.
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline mariomike

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Any employer, generally speaking, can with sufficient documentation properly articulate and defend the termination of employment of someone who is known to espouse and/or act on views contrary to the employers principles and ethics. CAF is really no different, although a CAF member gets considerably more bureaucratic protection than employees for many other organizations would see.

My employer would tolerate almost anything. They didn't care what your prejudices were. But, outside of the station ( where basically anything was tolerated, especially in the old days ) if you treated anyone with disrespect on a call - you were history. You likely wouldn't lose your job. But, would find yourself shovelling sh^t in the sewers. Literally.

Sure there was a union. They'd send a rep to hold your hand. But, that was about it.

Towards the end on my career, a number of guys committed career suicide via social media.
In any war, there are two tremendous tasks. That of the combat troops is to fight the enemy. That of the supply troops is to furnish all the material to insure victory. The faster and farther the combat troops advance against the foe, the greater becomes the battle of supply. EISENHOWER

Offline Brihard

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Towards the end on my career, a number of guys committed career suicide via social media.

Yup, this is an increasing phenomenon for sure.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Jarnhamar

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That isn't a political ideology, that is a personal attitude that they are good to go and everyone else is incompetent.  Most of the times this isn't matched by reality - in fact it is generally the other way around.

Right. Not a political ideology. I wonder how many of our white supremacist losers view it as a legitimate political type movement and how many just get off on being assholes. The same way people got off on the cpl bloggins crap.


There are no wolves on Fenris

Offline Jarnhamar

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I wonder if our soldiers deployed to Europe inadvertently cross paths with neo-nazis or white supremacist units when we train with other European countries.

And if they do and it's obvious, what our SOPs are. I would imagine since we're issuing special orders to weed out extremists in our own ranks we will flat out refuse to operate along side with or especially train extremists over there.
There are no wolves on Fenris

Offline reveng

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Brihard said it better than I above.

Why would someone who feels the state is corrupt, oppressive and/or racist join the one organization of the state that has a monopoly on violence?

Very well said. It's more likely that extremists on the right would gravitate towards organizations such as the CAF. Perhaps this would apply to LE as well, not sure.

If I was a police officer, I'd be concerned about getting in a gun fight with a right wing extremist (lone wolf, maybe small group) - but I'd also be concerned about mass social unrest and people that want to burn society to the ground.

As a former CAF member now enjoying civilian life, who owns property, has a spouse and elderly parents...I'm most worried about unrest/revolution/mass violence. I will let people make their own assumptions about which side of the political spectrum I'm concerned about in that respect.

 :2c:

Offline Brad Sallows

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>Why would someone who feels the state is corrupt, oppressive and/or racist join the one organization of the state that has a monopoly on violence?

They don't, of course.  Leftists don't join the armed and police forces of the middle-ist state they are trying to overthrow; they overthrow it and then staff the armed and police forces of their own.
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Offline Navy_Pete

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It's funny that folks are eager to put "mainstream media" as "left of centre."  Perhaps the problem is where folks are choosing to put centre of mass.

We do not have a "far left extremism" problem in the CAF, and I've yet to see a case where "growth of antifa ideology/communist viewpoints/etc/etc threatens the good order and discipline of the CAF."  Those of you twisting your underwear in a knot here are just creating a red herring. 

However, we do have specific cases of members identifying with nativist/supremist ideologies.  And there are enough serious case studies in the ranks of our allies to cause concern.  The recent incidents and trends in the U.S. and German Armed Forces give us good understanding as to where this can lead if left unchecked by leadership.

Also, we don't need any new tools to deal with the existing issue of possible nazi/supremacist type ideologies, and really nothing stopping anyone from applying it to personnel that are found to be extremists anywhere on the spectrum that are causing a problem.

No one is saying we are protecting antifa or whomever just that there is a known issue of right wing extremists deliberately looking to infiltrate police/military forces, and we need to kick it in the teeth.

Not really sure what is wrong with being anti fascist though; the CAF was a big part of that from 1939-1945 which we memorialize every year, and anyone who enjoys personal liberties and freedoms should be inherently against fascism as well as racism, so I think it's probably important to separate a general belief that Nazis are bad with violent extremism. 

Offline mariomike

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Not really sure what is wrong with being anti fascist though; the CAF was a big part of that from 1939-1945 which we memorialize every year, and anyone who enjoys personal liberties and freedoms should be inherently against fascism as well as racism, so I think it's probably important to separate a general belief that Nazis are bad with violent extremism.

I'm not really sure either. Other than constantly reading antifa this and antifa that on here.

I've always been proud that my father, and my mother's father, fought overseas for Canada ( Navy and Army respectively ) in WW2. Especially of an uncle in the RCAF who never made it back to Canada and is interred in France.
In any war, there are two tremendous tasks. That of the combat troops is to fight the enemy. That of the supply troops is to furnish all the material to insure victory. The faster and farther the combat troops advance against the foe, the greater becomes the battle of supply. EISENHOWER

Offline Target Up

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Also, we don't need any new tools to deal with the existing issue of possible nazi/supremacist type ideologies, and really nothing stopping anyone from applying it to personnel that are found to be extremists anywhere on the spectrum that are causing a problem.

No one is saying we are protecting antifa or whomever just that there is a known issue of right wing extremists deliberately looking to infiltrate police/military forces, and we need to kick it in the teeth.

Not really sure what is wrong with being anti fascist though; the CAF was a big part of that from 1939-1945 which we memorialize every year, and anyone who enjoys personal liberties and freedoms should be inherently against fascism as well as racism, so I think it's probably important to separate a general belief that Nazis are bad with violent extremism.

Maybe because these days anything to the right of Groucho Marx is labelled a nazi and a fascist? Also that monuments to those guys who went over there and did the deed are vandalized and defaced by today’s current group of anti fascists?
« Last Edit: September 19, 2020, 15:46:02 by Target Up »
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

“In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility; but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger; stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favor'd rage.”

 Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and start slitting throats

Offline MJP

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Regarding releasing these individuals from CAF, procedural fairness, due process, etc... There's a different standard applied to terminating employment than there is to being charged with an offense.  It's very much in CAF's (and arguably Canada's) interest to be able to efficiently release people from military service who don't serve the unique needs thereof, or who are otherwise an undue liability or administrative burden. The courts have tested the administrative release process, and it holds up. Given the real security concerns attendant to people who have extremist political views of any bent, I think it's necessary and appropriate that the upper chain of command support and champion efforts to clear the ranks of those with an ethos contradictory to what the military requires. Bear in mind that any further obstacle to releasing these members who apply equally to those we might categorize as '****birds', the guys who all have known and worked with who just shouldn't be in but have somehow not quite yet managed to get kicked out. These are still individuals that take up positions, that create administrative burdens, and that harm the efficiency and effectiveness of the total force. Some greater degree of protection of extremists from the consequences of their choices would also extend protections to all of these other individuals. Just bear that in mind. Any employer, generally speaking, can with sufficient documentation properly articulate and defend the termination of employment of someone who is known to espouse and/or act on views contrary to the employers principles and ethics. CAF is really no different, although a CAF member gets considerably more bureaucratic protection than employees for many other organizations would see.
Correct.  And people who whine that "Admin Measures" are another form of punishment need to understand this.

Break the law (Code of Service Discipline) - military justice system
Conduct does not meet the bar set by policy and regulations - administrative measures
Performance does not meet the bar set by policy and regulations - administrative measures

Three distinct things, and a combination of the first and either of the latter two may be required in some cases.

Well said Brihard and Infanteer! Part of the issue is many CoCs don't fully understand the process, are given faulty advice regarding the process or have their own views/interpretations that they imposed on the process.  The one thing with the process in my opinion is it is almost too slow and procedurally fair. We take an incredible amount of time and energy to remove someone that would have been fired in any other job 
Hope is not a valid COA

Offline Brihard

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So now that I’ve been out for a bit, are any ‘new tools’ actually being developed and deployed on this? Or is this merely firm direction from on high to apply the tools and procedures that exist, and to curb leniency on this particular category of behaviour?
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline MJP

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So now that I’ve been out for a bit, are any ‘new tools’ actually being developed and deployed on this? Or is this merely firm direction from on high to apply the tools and procedures that exist, and to curb leniency on this particular category of behaviour?

There is a tracking tool for Operation HONOUR breaches which can be readily adapted for really anything misconduct, that might be worthwhile to do as long as they make the instructions better as it is still a bit unwieldy (see also Monitor Mass).

 The actual AR process is still owned by Director Military Careers Administration 2 (DMCA 2) and the admin policy hasn't changed. Really the speed a case is adjudicated is directly related to the amount of command pressure or imperative due to seriousness of the incident to push the file within the bounds of procedural fairness. My experience is that often the slow nature of the cases stems from the units themselves who are slow at requesting an AR (along with proper supporting documentation) or they misunderstand or forget steps of the admin process along the way. 
« Last Edit: September 19, 2020, 18:55:36 by MJP »
Hope is not a valid COA