Author Topic: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's  (Read 36244 times)

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Offline Journeyman

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Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
« Reply #50 on: January 23, 2017, 09:59:54 »
But we always knew that our very senior leadership has bling envy.
Oh, there's still a ways to go...    :o



Quote
... except for the CDS who decided that somehow his maple leaves should be twice as big as every one else's and made of silver
          ???



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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
« Reply #51 on: January 23, 2017, 10:24:19 »


« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 10:27:57 by Eye In The Sky »
Do I love my job?  No.

But does it afford me the ability to go on lavish vacations and buy anything I want?  Also no.

Offline LogOLife

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Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
« Reply #52 on: January 23, 2017, 10:25:52 »
Maple leaves and new insignia at the same time? And all those jump wings....?



Edit: I just dug into the regs for ranks and apparently that changed last year (don't know how I missed it), but I guess that is how General ranks are now...

Also - looks like the third set of wings are German.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 10:38:31 by LogOLife »

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
« Reply #53 on: January 23, 2017, 10:43:32 »
Edit: I just dug into the regs for ranks and apparently that changed last year (don't know how I missed it), but I guess that is how General ranks are now...

http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?nid=1045579

and the Forage Cap *stuff*...

http://www.army-armee.forces.gc.ca/en/news-publications/national-news-details-no-menu.page?doc=maple-leaf-is-back-in-new-army-dress/iv9j06gw

Forage caps – with their distinctive stiff brims – were replaced by the beret in the CA decades ago. CWO Guimond said their re-introduction is a nod to CA heritage that will also bring the CA more in line with many of its allies.

The forage cap suggests authority, seniority,” he said. “It means a lot. And when we look at many other countries, the general officers are wearing their forage caps with their element uniforms.”
-------------------------------------------------
I guess the Army Sgt-Maj doesn't remember getting issued his forage cap on Thursday of Week 1 in Cornwallis like I did.  I had no idea I had authority and seniority vested in me that day in Supply!

Fact is, the all 3 elements are guilty of the bling-BS the past few years; Army, Navy AND Air Force.  Caps, curls and Aircrew Wings are high priority issues in the CAF today.   :nod:

« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 10:54:12 by Eye In The Sky »
Do I love my job?  No.

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Offline Journeyman

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Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
« Reply #54 on: January 23, 2017, 10:44:46 »
[CDS pics]
Seen.  Obviously, I've been looking at old pictures.

Thanks
There’s nothing more maddening than debating someone who doesn’t know history, doesn’t read books, and frames their myopia as virtue. The level of unapologetic conjecture I’ve encountered lately isn’t just frustrating, it’s retrogressive, unprecedented, and absolutely terrifying.
~Chris Evans

Offline LogOLife

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Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2017, 10:48:54 »
I'm still confused by the wings as this is what is stated in the Dress Regs:

FOREIGN FLYING AND SPECIALIST SKILL BADGES
12. Personnel who have been presented foreign Flying and Specialist Skill badges
from allied countries as a result of qualifications obtained on a course prescribed
by the CAF, shall wear the applicable CAF badge in accordance with wear
instructions above.

13. Where an equivalent CAF badge has not been designed or approved for wear,
the foreign badge presented for the prescribed qualification shall be worn like a
CAF badge in accordance with wear instructions above. If wearing both a CAF
badge and a foreign badge, the CAF badge shall take precedence.

14. The following prescribed foreign qualification badges are authorized for wear on
the CAF uniform:

a. United States Army Ranger Badge (a cloth sleeve badge);
b. United States Army Special Forces Badge (a cloth sleeve badge);
c. United States Sapper Badge (a cloth sleeve badge);
d. United States Army Ranger Badge (metal pocket badge);
e. United States Army Special Forces Badge (metal pocket badge);
f. United States Air Assault Badge (a metal pocket badge);
g. Colombian Lancero Badge (a metal pocket badge); and
h. Brazilian Jungle Warfare Badge (a metal pocket badge).

15. Personnel who have been presented equivalent badges of allied countries as a
result of qualifications obtained on a course prescribed by the CAF, and those
who have been presented honorary qualification badges while attached to, or
serving with the armed forces of an allied country, may wear the appropriate
metal or cloth badge, on the right breast of the service dress and mess dress
jacket only while on duty in the specific allied country, when subsequently
working with the armed forces of the country or when attending a formal function
sponsored by the country concerned
.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2017, 10:57:39 »
Seen.  Obviously, I've been looking at old pictures.

Thanks

IMO, even the 'new' rank the CDS has on now isn't really that different from that of previous CDS's...

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-org-structure/former-cds.page
Do I love my job?  No.

But does it afford me the ability to go on lavish vacations and buy anything I want?  Also no.

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Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
« Reply #57 on: January 23, 2017, 11:00:36 »
I guess I'm weird.  I'd prefer to have a decent flashlight I didn't have to buy myself, or flying gloves that don't fall apart when I use them for...flying.  Nice driving gloves, but changing setting on a belly load and they're toast after the first 10 buoys usually.  I received some helpful new DEU slip-ons this year though!   :blotto:

Is it too much to ask to get kit that doesn't fall apart especially in an office setting i.e. the new temperate combat sneakers boots...
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
« Reply #58 on: January 23, 2017, 11:04:43 »
Is it too much to ask to get kit that doesn't fall apart especially in an office setting i.e. the new temperate combat sneakers boots...

Yes?   >:D
Do I love my job?  No.

But does it afford me the ability to go on lavish vacations and buy anything I want?  Also no.

Offline Dimsum

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Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
« Reply #59 on: January 23, 2017, 11:10:38 »
I'm still confused by the wings as this is what is stated in the Dress Regs:

FOREIGN FLYING AND SPECIALIST SKILL BADGES
15. Personnel who have been presented equivalent badges of allied countries as a
result of qualifications obtained on a course prescribed by the CAF, and those
who have been presented honorary qualification badges while attached to, or
serving with the armed forces of an allied country, may wear the appropriate
metal or cloth badge, on the right breast of the service dress and mess dress
jacket only while on duty in the specific allied country, when subsequently
working with the armed forces of the country or when attending a formal function
sponsored by the country concerned
.


Basically, if that picture was taken in Germany, he would be authorized to wear German jump wings. 
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline LogOLife

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Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
« Reply #60 on: January 23, 2017, 11:31:25 »
Basically, if that picture was taken in Germany, he would be authorized to wear German jump wings.

Right. It was taken last week at the NATO Chiefs meeting in Brussels. There are pictures of CDS wearing same insignia this weekend in Toronto too.

Offline Eaglelord17

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Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
« Reply #61 on: January 23, 2017, 11:44:14 »
http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?nid=1045579

and the Forage Cap *stuff*...

http://www.army-armee.forces.gc.ca/en/news-publications/national-news-details-no-menu.page?doc=maple-leaf-is-back-in-new-army-dress/iv9j06gw

Forage caps – with their distinctive stiff brims – were replaced by the beret in the CA decades ago. CWO Guimond said their re-introduction is a nod to CA heritage that will also bring the CA more in line with many of its allies.

The forage cap suggests authority, seniority,” he said. “It means a lot. And when we look at many other countries, the general officers are wearing their forage caps with their element uniforms.”
-------------------------------------------------
I guess the Army Sgt-Maj doesn't remember getting issued his forage cap on Thursday of Week 1 in Cornwallis like I did.  I had no idea I had authority and seniority vested in me that day in Supply!

The forage cap suggesting authority is one of the few points I actually agree with. I was on parade a year ago as the Navy guy in a Army unit with the forage cap. The civilians organizing the parade would come up to me to ask what was going on instead of going to the officers as they thought I was in charge. The point being that is how civilians in particular view it, and it is one of the few visible changes civilians will notice (as change in ranks and such tend to get ignored as they don't know what the difference in ranks were to begin with).

Offline Rifleman62

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Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
« Reply #62 on: January 23, 2017, 12:01:41 »
With all the bling and a forge cap don't stand near the entrance of a ritzy hotel.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 12:04:36 by Rifleman62 »
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
« Reply #63 on: January 23, 2017, 12:16:08 »
The forage cap suggesting authority is one of the few points I actually agree with. I was on parade a year ago as the Navy guy in a Army unit with the forage cap. The civilians organizing the parade would come up to me to ask what was going on instead of going to the officers as they thought I was in charge. The point being that is how civilians in particular view it, and it is one of the few visible changes civilians will notice (as change in ranks and such tend to get ignored as they don't know what the difference in ranks were to begin with).

I don't think we should be deciding dress regulations off the perceptions of civilians though.  But, hey, as long as I can keep my head wallet for parades and stuff, I'm cool with the whole forage cap deal.   :nod:
Do I love my job?  No.

But does it afford me the ability to go on lavish vacations and buy anything I want?  Also no.

Offline Eaglelord17

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Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
« Reply #64 on: January 23, 2017, 13:23:54 »
I don't think we should be deciding dress regulations off the perceptions of civilians though.  But, hey, as long as I can keep my head wallet for parades and stuff, I'm cool with the whole forage cap deal.   :nod:

Not saying we should either, but to them it does suggest authority, which makes sense as you look at most militaries most (pretty much all?) use forage caps for there higher ranks. Personally I just want the kit required to do what I need to do, which currently we lack. It almost makes you wish they could ban dress uniforms until we have the actual equipment required to do our jobs, i.e. blow things up, kill people, and the stuff needed to support the equipment and people doing those two actions.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
« Reply #65 on: January 23, 2017, 13:38:48 »
Not saying we should either, but to them it does suggest authority, which makes sense as you look at most militaries most (pretty much all?) use forage caps for there higher ranks. Personally I just want the kit required to do what I need to do, which currently we lack. It almost makes you wish they could ban dress uniforms until we have the actual equipment required to do our jobs, i.e. blow things up, kill people, and the stuff needed to support the equipment and people doing those two actions.

I trust that by 'kill people' you mean 'the enemy'?

One never knows these days, especially if one is flying a Sea King or something like that :)
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Offline LunchMeat

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Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
« Reply #66 on: January 23, 2017, 13:58:10 »
Would you care if all of your subordinates who had US jump wings suddenly started wearing them?

Leadership is from the top down, no?  From http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-01/toc-04.page

4.02 - GENERAL RESPONSIBILITIES OF OFFICERS

(1) An officer shall:
a.become acquainted with, observe and enforce:
i.the National Defence Act,
ii.the Security of Information Act,
iii.QR&O, and
iv.all other regulations, rules, orders and instructions that pertain to the performance of the officer's duties;

That would include CF dress regulations.  It sets the "we are GOFO/Snr Officer/Jnr Officers/CWOs/MWOs/WOs/Sgts, we can bend the rules that we are actually supposed to enforce" precedent.  If its not a big deal for our most senior ranks to do it, it should be even LESS of a deal if our OCdts, 2Lts, Cpls and Pte's do it.

But the last few years have shown us its not about leadership sometimes, its about getting the new bling.  Example, the "new" Wings for RCAF personnel that are approved but not produced in mass and distributed yet, but our senior leaders and a select few are sporting the new bling so they have their LCF goin' on while the people at the op level wait.  The Wings themselves aren't much of a big deal (the less I am in DEU and more I am in a flight suit, the happier I am...), the message of "the troops DON'T come first" is a big deal (to me). 



I'm well aware of the regulations, I just think that at this stage of Vance's career he's more a politician than anything else and only has a few years left in service I'm sure.

With the dismal state the CAF is in, I don't think this is the big ticket issue we should be focused on. I know for a lot of you old school mbrs it'll be hard to see that point of view.

Also, it's not like the CAF is out any money by having JV prance around in US Jump Wings, so while I get the budget discussion, it's irrelevant.
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Offline AmmoTech90

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Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
« Reply #67 on: January 23, 2017, 14:09:20 »
I'm well aware of the regulations, I just think that at this stage of Vance's career he's more a politician than anything else and only has a few years left in service I'm sure.

So Mr. MP, how much time left before CRA does a CAF member have to have before the regulations no longer apply to them?

And that attitude is why MPs should look after traffic route marking and POWs.
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Offline LunchMeat

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Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
« Reply #68 on: January 23, 2017, 14:11:02 »
So Mr. MP, how much time left before CRA does a CAF member have to have before the regulations no longer apply to them?

And that attitude is why MPs should look after traffic route marking and POWs.

Apples to Oranges, you're comparing a 25¢ pin on a suit jacket to CSD Offences.
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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
« Reply #69 on: January 23, 2017, 14:15:57 »
Apples to Oranges, you're comparing a 25¢ pin on a suit jacket to CSD Offences.
But by wearing that pin, the member could be committing an offense. You can't just piss off rules because that person might pull pin or is too high of a rank.

Offline LunchMeat

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Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
« Reply #70 on: January 23, 2017, 14:35:50 »
Edit: Disregard, I'm having a rough day and this wasn't necessary.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 23:54:58 by LunchMeat »
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
« Reply #71 on: January 23, 2017, 23:44:33 »
But by wearing that pin, the member could be committing an offense. You can't just piss off rules because that person might pull pin or is too high of a rank.

OK, I have to come clean now.

I never, ever wore the 1812 pin. Wasn't even issued it but I know that's no excuse.

Wait, there's someone hammering on my door....  ???
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Offline Dimsum

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Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
« Reply #72 on: January 24, 2017, 00:09:22 »
OK, I have to come clean now.

I never, ever wore the 1812 pin. Wasn't even issued it but I know that's no excuse.

Wait, there's someone hammering on my door....  ???

Me neither.  It must have been lost in transit for 3+ years in the Pacific.  Someone in Australia probably has it now.
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline my72jeep

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Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
« Reply #73 on: January 24, 2017, 09:52:32 »
Me neither.  It must have been lost in transit for 3+ years in the Pacific.  Someone in Australia probably has it now.
War of 1812 pin hell l'm still waiting for my year of the veteran pin to be issued.
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