Author Topic: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities  (Read 753864 times)

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1700 on: August 27, 2017, 17:02:38 »
It's also worth noting that while it's not replacing only the buffalo, it's only replacing one role of the SAR Hercs.  It's not meant to replace their other functions.

The one role of SAR Hercs.  Isn't that .... SAR? 
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Online Eagle Eye View

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1701 on: August 27, 2017, 17:39:08 »
SAR and Air to Air refuelling.
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Offline jmt18325

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1702 on: August 27, 2017, 18:20:50 »
SAR and Air to Air refuelling.

I thought some still did the occasional transport?  Or is that completely done now?

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1703 on: August 27, 2017, 18:32:25 »
They do.  I flew on a SAR-configured Herc from Winnipeg to Resolute Bay.

Offline YZT580

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1704 on: August 27, 2017, 19:36:08 »
and it took, what, 4:30 to 5:00 hours.  Be grateful it was the herc, our new SAR aircraft will do the same trip in 7:00 and running from Trenton it will take over 8.

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1705 on: August 27, 2017, 22:43:59 »
I misunderstood the role comment.   But the last comment is getting us back to the steak and not the peas.  Time to LKP can literally be the difference between life and death.

Recently I was part of a mission on the east coast that saw us retasked to a SAR.  PIW, no flotation device off a small vessel, dark clothes on and the sun was just starting to set when it came over the radio.  Survival times without poopy suits were low (despite the time of year, it can still be an hour or less).

The ability to get ONSTA quicker in cases like that is extremely important.  Extremely.  + \ - 70-80kts can be the difference between life and death.  A PIW (person in the water) with no flotation device isn't going to get many chances to survive when they are offshore. 

It also demonstrates the requirement for search lights and trained crews, spotters.  IR and RADAR aren't worth jack crap in a maritime SAR like that.
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Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1706 on: August 28, 2017, 05:49:51 »
Why don't immersion suit manufacturers include some sort of inflatable radar balloon with their immersion suits?

Similar to this product.  https://www.plastimo.com/en/safety/radar-reflectors/reflecteur-radar-gonflable.html

Given the fidelity of our radar systems it would definately make it easier to locate a survivor.   

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1707 on: August 28, 2017, 07:49:49 »
Cost?

And.  Make it orange please.  Very bright orange.
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Offline jmt18325

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1708 on: August 28, 2017, 10:03:15 »
I misunderstood the role comment.   But the last comment is getting us back to the steak and not the peas.  Time to LKP can literally be the difference between life and death.

I'll just point on that the National Research Council came to the conclusion that said quality was an arbitrary criterion.  That's probably because we're doing the job on the west coast an in the north (secondary role) with slower aircraft now.

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1709 on: August 28, 2017, 12:19:32 »
They do.  I flew on a SAR-configured Herc from Winnipeg to Resolute Bay.

It looks like there's one being used in BC right now, also.

Offline Ditch

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1710 on: August 28, 2017, 13:27:48 »
AAR role will disappear - at least from the current squadron that is tasked to provide.

Transport will continue to be done - with SAR being the first line of tasking.

Speed is arbitrary and inconclusive at this moment - if speed was the ultimate factor we would have Hornets equipped with SKADs on all our coasts.

There's still some glimmer of hope for a 7 man crew (AESOP being the 7th, sorry loadies).  MTF as the role is expanded upon with new capabilities.



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Offline captloadie

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1711 on: August 28, 2017, 13:33:09 »
We can barely meet the LM demand on the current fleets. I don't think we'll be devastated not being hunched over in the back  >:D

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1712 on: August 28, 2017, 13:39:50 »
Even better for your guys then - with the removal of the H models - you won't have three SAR squadrons plus one school to worry about.
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Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1713 on: August 28, 2017, 14:01:57 »
if speed was the ultimate factor we would have Hornets equipped with SKADs on all our coasts.




Online Colin P

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1714 on: August 28, 2017, 14:09:05 »
Cost?

And.  Make it orange please.  Very bright orange.

SAR orange = +10% to cost, SAR Marine= add another %15, SAR aviation = add %75

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1715 on: August 28, 2017, 14:34:14 »
I'll just point on that the National Research Council came to the conclusion that said quality was an arbitrary criterion.  That's probably because we're doing the job on the west coast an in the north (secondary role) with slower aircraft now.

Great.  As someone who has been on SAR missions at the coal face I will dismiss anyone who says speed to the scene is not important.  At least in some cases, such as the one I mentioned above.  That wasn't a fictitious story for benefit of supporting my opinion.     

We used muskets and horses in combat back in the day.  Is that valid argument today to not improve combat force capabilities? 
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 14:37:35 by Eye In The Sky »
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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1716 on: August 28, 2017, 14:43:29 »
AAR role will disappear - at least from the current squadron that is tasked to provide.

Transport will continue to be done - with SAR being the first line of tasking.

Speed is arbitrary and inconclusive at this moment - if speed was the ultimate factor we would have Hornets equipped with SKADs on all our coasts.

There's still some glimmer of hope for a 7 man crew (AESOP being the 7th, sorry loadies).  MTF as the role is expanded upon with new capabilities.

I know you've oodles more SAR experience than I do but I still have to say I think speed is important.  Not all the time but some of the time.  Missions like the one I mentioned earlier are rare but happen and minutes can be crucial. 

Sensor ops manning sensors makes sense of course but I am also aware of the challenges our trade faces and supply/demand realities.  I still think the SAR mission is a real day to day operational mission that we can plan for before the first 295s are in place.
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Offline jmt18325

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1717 on: August 28, 2017, 15:59:52 »
I know you've oodles more SAR experience than I do but I still have to say I think speed is important.  Not all the time but some of the time.  Missions like the one I mentioned earlier are rare but happen and minutes can be crucial. 


Since this is an area that I have some expertise, I feel I can contribute.  Yes, minutes count.  With SAR, and general rescue, hours don't count so much.  The difference between many hours and many many hours is usually not as significant.

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1718 on: August 28, 2017, 16:37:11 »
That depends when you have a drift rate of 6kts from the last known point and wind that shears or conflicting tidal currents, you search areas grows very much wider by the hour. I was on one call where the search was for a skiff missing between Sandspit and Rivers Inlet. We found them ok and it was a bright sunny day with almost no chop, they were sitting on the edge of the Buffs search pattern, watching it fly back and forth just outside of the grid, a passing fishboat picked up them up on radar and alerted us and sent over a boat to investigate. Every hour not searching means your search takes longer and is more costly. There is a limited budget even for SAR.

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1719 on: August 28, 2017, 16:45:13 »
I was being more....dire than that.  Hours usually means dead.  Not always, mind you, but with each hour, your percentage chance of being found alive gets a lot smaller.

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1720 on: August 28, 2017, 17:29:41 »
In this case it ended well for the 2 of them, many times it has been to late. I did marvel at how efficient our first "electronic" rescue went getting a canoeist off of Brooks Peninsula after getting smashed onto the rocks, he had a early 406/151mhz beacon loaned to him and it led us right to him. We could save money just by giving those away to every commercial boat.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1721 on: August 28, 2017, 20:42:08 »

Since this is an area that I have some expertise, I feel I can contribute.  Yes, minutes count.  With SAR, and general rescue, hours don't count so much.  The difference between many hours and many many hours is usually not as significant.

FWSAR is its own flavour though which is what this is about.  You can only fly so slow and lack the ability to hover and hold position. 

A another good example is the sail race SAR last summer mid Atlantic.   Getting there quick and being able to determine reality and assets was very important.  Herc got their quick but lacked electronic search ability.  Aurora got on station and added vital info gained by doing some things we do extremely well (radar surface plot + AIS + comms + EOIR...) and regularly.

The new FWSAR will have the sensor package and comms (not sure what the comms package will be) but not as much speed.  I've no idea what legs it will have compared to Hercs and 140s but the 140 mission was 12+ hours.  Depending on transit times etc the quicker you can get there and the longer you can stay the less chance of gaps in the search. 

It doesn't feel great to go offsta with no success and a XX gap in time before your relief is on scene. 
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 20:44:43 by Eye In The Sky »
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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1722 on: August 28, 2017, 20:46:46 »
In this case it ended well for the 2 of them, many times it has been to late. I did marvel at how efficient our first "electronic" rescue went getting a canoeist off of Brooks Peninsula after getting smashed onto the rocks, he had a early 406/151mhz beacon loaned to him and it led us right to him. We could save money just by giving those away to every commercial boat.

Great points in both your posts.  SARTs would be great as well IMO.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1723 on: November 23, 2017, 13:43:36 »
So, had a chat with a friend who is a fling-wing SAR type earlier today.  I wasn't aware that the new FWSAR wasn't going to have an APU.

Interesting, and likely not in a good way.
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Offline HB_Pencil

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1724 on: November 23, 2017, 15:16:46 »
Did he have anything to say about the lack of headroom in the back for techs and the lack of upper window in the cockpit?