Author Topic: Battle Honours for Afghanistan  (Read 64842 times)

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Offline Sheep Dog AT

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Re: Battle Honours for Afganistan
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2006, 23:07:44 »
http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=2224042005

Iraq battle honours for two Scots regiments
GETHIN CHAMBERLAIN
 
BRITISH regiments which fought in Iraq during the 2003 war have been granted permission by the Queen to display two new battle honours on their colours.

The units, which include the Black Watch and the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards (RSDG), can include the battle honour "Al Basrah" and the theatre honour "Iraq 2003", alongside the names of other great battles that already appear on their colours.

The Black Watch battle honours include such famous names as Waterloo, Balaclava, Sebastopol, the Somme, and El Alamein, while the RSDG, whose predecessors also fought at many of those battles, can count the first Gulf war in 1991.

The Ministry of Defence said the decision about which regiments should receive battle honours was based on their involvement in operations within the land territory of Iraq during the phase of major combat operations between 20 March and 1 May, 2003.

A spokeswoman said the combat regiments and corps selected had "contributed significantly to the successful coalition land operations, demon-strating the utmost steadfastness and gallantry in the face of hostile fire".

Adam Ingram, the armed forces minister, praised the units selected. He said: "These honours represent a historic and traditional means of recognising the immense efforts British soldiers have made in bringing democracy to Iraq.

"Our soldiers and their families can be very proud of the role they have performed and the sacrifices they have made to guarantee a brighter future for the people of Iraq."

The decision to award the battle honours - a term which is used colloquially to cover both battle and theatre honours - was approved by the Queen in June this year.

According to the MoD, battle honours serve "as a permanent record of achievement of which past, present and future generations of service personnel can be proud".

Both the Scottish regiments were involved in the final assault on Basra on 6 April which led to the fall of the city and marked the start of the collapse of the Iraqi regime.

A spokesman for the Black Watch welcomed the award.

He said: "The battalion is very pleased to receive the battle honour. It is the first since the Battle of the Hook in 1952 [in Korea] and it is apposite to receive it at this time of the year when we are remembering those of our regiment who have fallen."

The Irish Guards were granted the same battle honours in June this year to allow them to troop their colour, with the new honours emblazoned on it, at the Queen's birthday parade.

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Offline Sheep Dog AT

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Re: Battle Honours for Afganistan
« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2006, 23:16:40 »
I included this to show that Battle Honours have been issued recently and we know that 3VP have been awarded the GG's comendation for OP Apollo.
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Offline Teddy Ruxpin

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Re: Battle Honours for Afganistan
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2006, 01:14:56 »
Quote
The units, which include the Black Watch and the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards (RSDG), can include the battle honour "Al Basrah" and the theatre honour "Iraq 2003", alongside the names of other great battles that already appear on their colours.

Exactly the concept I was mentioning.  I doubt that we've had any single actions on a scale appropriate for a battle honour, but "Afghanistan" should surely be valid as a theatre honour...
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Offline Sheep Dog AT

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Re: Battle Honours for Afganistan
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2006, 01:18:15 »
So what/who does it take to get the ball rolling?  I assume the Queen still needs to sign off on it?
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Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Battle Honours for Afganistan
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2006, 02:49:45 »
I expect there wouldn't be anything concrete developed until after the conflict in order to ensure it's not a piecemeal arrangment.  here are the times lines for the First and Second World Wars and Korea.

First World War
  • Armistice - 1918
  • Army Orders for Battle Honours promulgated - 1928
See http://regimentalrogue.com/battlehonours/firstworldwar-btlhnrs.htm

Second World War
  • VE-day - 1945
  • Army Orders for Battle Honours promulgated - 1956
See http://regimentalrogue.com/battlehonours/secondworldwar-btlhnrs.htm

Second World War
  • Ceasefire - 1953
  • Army Orders for Battle Honours promulgated - 1958
See http://regimentalrogue.com/battlehonours/koreanwar-btlhnrs.htm

Offline Red 6

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Re: Battle Honours for Afganistan
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2006, 09:18:03 »
I followed the link about your battle honors to the Regimental Rogue, and it was an outstanding piece of intel. Why does it take so many years to get these awarded? In the 1st Infantry Division after Desert Storm, we received our streamers in July of 91. It was a powerful moment for us to stand there among our buddies as the Secretary of the Army pinned the streamers to our colors. I realize it's two completely different systems, but this kind of stuff fascinates me.

Offline Teddy Ruxpin

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Re: Battle Honours for Afganistan
« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2006, 11:15:22 »
Red 6:  part of the problem is a desire to be equitable, as Mike has alluded to.  For Afghanistan, for instance, there will have to be a determination as to what constitutes "combat".  We're on pretty firm ground with the current Op ARCHER and 2002's Op APOLLO, but does ATHENA (our mission in Kabul) count towards a theatre honour?  What about units contributing sub-units?  Generally speaking, units contributing formed sub-units (with HQs) likely qualify for an honour, but the situation is sometimes less than clear. 

In the case of the two world wars, the process was even muddier.  The honours committees had to determine which specific battles were worthy of being considered for honour status, a process that involves much emotion and "political" consideration.  Then they had to determine which units qualified for each honour - a long and drawn-out process as our system recognizes individual battles as well as participation in "campaigns".  This is exacerbated by the fact that only regimental-level units carry battle honours; the system doesn't extend to the brigade or divisional levels, where participation is simpler to determine.

Since the "British" system we follow includes battle honours over 400 years old (the Royal Navy has ships that carry "Spanish Armada 1588", for example), the "system" tends to be a bit sticky when it comes to creating new ones.

Cheers,

TR
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: Battle Honours for Afganistan
« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2006, 11:31:16 »
I doubt that we've had any single actions on a scale appropriate for a battle honour

Perhaps the latest battle (Panjawi, or whatever the transliteration of the day is)?  It certainly meets the criteria for having enough of the unit in theater:

Quote
Percentage of Unit present in an Operation
13.     Normally, the rule that will be applied is that headquarters and at least fifty percent of the sub-units of a unit must have been present.

14.     Two particular extensions of this rule will be allowed for as follows:

(a)     where units such as armoured regiments, armoured car regiments, reconnaissance regiments or machine-gun battalions fought on a squadron or company basis, with squadrons or companies being attached to brigades or battalions for operations, honours may be awarded where fifty percent of the squadrons or companies were engaged without their regimental or battalion headquarters~. Where a unit had sub-units committed simultaneously to different operations only one award covering anyone period of time will be made;

(b)     where a regiment was represented in a theatre only by a squadron or a company operating independently, such as the independent machine gun company in an armoured division, honours may be awarded on the basis of fifty percent of the troops or platoons being present in battle. Where such troops or platoons were committed simultaneously to different operations, only one award will be made to cover anyone period of time.

15.     There may be exceptional cases where individual squadrons or companies took an important part in certain operations, and in such cases any claims submitted will be treated on their merits.

I'm not sure if there is any policy on "how big" a battle (ie: amount of enemy present, geographical size) has to be to actually qualify as a battle honour, but I think there is merit to this one when you consider that Regiments carry "Fish Creek" and "Batoche".
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Offline TheHead

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Re: Battle Honours for Afganistan
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2007, 12:57:57 »
Participation in Operations
12.     A battle honour will not be awarded merely because a unit was present in an operation. To qualify, the unit must:

(a)     have been committed in the locality and within the time limits laid down for one of the individual operations defined below;

(b)     have been actively engaged with enemy ground troops;

(c)     have taken a creditable part in the" operations;

(d)     be proud of its part in the operation.



  Funny - 1PPCLI seems to have qualified for all those requirements. The soldiers in 1PPCLI deserve a Battle Honor for Panjawai.  The sad thing I'm seeing in this thread are the pencil pushers here trying to take away from the boys on the ground (Common occurrence in this Army I forgot).  Everyone has to step back and realize these last two tours are not your little vacations in Cyprus or your laughable march up the "whale" , this wasn't your little WOG posting in Camp Mirage, this was war fighting.  In ONE day of fighting in Panjawai my platoon and attachments took 4 killed and 10 wounded.  We were fighting an enemy estimated at numbers reaching 200. This Military needs to get off our high horse and realize our boys are killing and getting killed.

  I also see the same attitude about the Combat Infantry Badge.  I hear the complaining all over base, "Why should they get something that makes them stick out from all the rest of us".  Why? Because we did something this Army hasn't done since the days of Korea. We went out, actively engaged the enemy for 7 months and in laman-terms kicked their ***. 
 
  Saying Panjawai wasn't a battle is laughable and even sadder due to the fact you most likely sat on KAF for 7 months sipping your Tim Hortons.

/Rant Off     

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Re: Battle Honours for Afganistan
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2007, 13:03:30 »

  Funny - 1PPCLI seems to have qualified for all those requirements. The soldiers in 1PPCLI deserve a Battle Honor for Panjawai.  The sad thing I'm seeing in this thread are the pencil pushers here trying to take away from the boys on the ground (Common occurrence in this Army I forgot).  Everyone has to step back and realize these last two tours are not your little vacations in Cyprus or your laughable march up the "whale" , this wasn't your little WOG posting in Camp Mirage, this was war fighting.  In ONE day of fighting in Panjawai my platoon and attachments took 4 killed and 10 wounded.  We were fighting an enemy estimated at numbers reaching 200. This Military needs to get off our high horse and realize our boys are killing and getting killed.

  I also see the same attitude about the Combat Infantry Badge.  I hear the complaining all over base, "Why should they get something that makes them stick out from all the rest of us".  Why? Because we did something this Army hasn't done since the days of Korea. We went out, actively engaged the enemy for 7 months and in laman-terms kicked their ***. 
 
  Saying Panjawai wasn't a battle is laughable and even sadder due to the fact you most likely sat on KAF for 7 months sipping your Tim Hortons.

/Rant Off     

TheHead,

Although i understand the point you are trying to make, Insulting other soldier's service, no matter where or what it was is something i will not tolerate. You make another post with the same attitude and i will deal with you IAW the army.ca warning system.

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« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 13:08:11 by cdnaviator »

Offline Sheep Dog AT

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Re: Battle Honours for Afganistan
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2007, 13:07:09 »
"Saying Panjawai wasn't a battle is laughable and even sadder due to the fact you most likely sat on KAF for 7 months sipping your Tim Hortons."

Who exactly is directed too?
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Offline TheHead

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Re: Battle Honours for Afganistan
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2007, 13:08:23 »
"Saying Panjawai wasn't a battle is laughable and even sadder due to the fact you most likely sat on KAF for 7 months sipping your Tim Hortons."

Who exactly is directed too?

I never directed any of those jabs at anyone in particular.  I used them in the context that most of the people against the Battle Honor or Combat Infantry badge were NEVER there.   

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Re: Battle Honours for Afganistan
« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2007, 13:09:48 »
Thanks for the clarification.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Battle Honours for Afganistan
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2007, 13:12:08 »
TheHead

Perhaps you'll have a better picture if you were to hit the History Books.  Go check out your own Regimental history and find out when Battle Honours have been awarded.  I think you will find that they have taken up to twenty years after the Battle for the Documentation and Research to be done and confirmed before awards are presented.  Many Battle Honours for WW I were not presented to units until late in the 1920's and into the 1930's.  The Units have to start the process with deciding what Battle Honour they feel is significant and submit that for approval through the bureaucratic process.  It doesn't happen overnight, just as 'Order' will not be returned to Afghanistan overnight.

You may also find in the little tirade of yours that this comment was totally false and in bad taste:

Quote
....Everyone has to step back and realize these last two tours are not your little vacations in Cyprus or your laughable march up the "whale" , this wasn't your little WOG posting in Camp Mirage, this was war fighting.  In ONE day of fighting in Panjawai my platoon and attachments took 4 killed and 10 wounded.  We were fighting an enemy estimated at numbers reaching 200. This Military needs to get off our high horse and realize our boys are killing and getting killed.

In 1974, the CAR faced a much larger and better equipped force than your Taliban and suffered two fatalities while FIGHTING in Cyprus.


[Edit to note that several posts have been entered while I was typing.  In the end, better research of our military histories will give one a better perception of what the answers to the question on Battle Honours is all about.  I might add that the Airborne Regiment did not receive a Battle Honour for that Battle either.]
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 13:24:15 by George Wallace »
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Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Battle Honours for Afganistan
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2007, 16:07:03 »
For The Head; if you would like to familiarize yourself with the full text of the parent document of the paragraph you quoted, please see these:

33-1 Battle Honours - The Second World War

Note also that Honours for the Korean War were also based on the terms and condition published for the Second World War:

33-1 Battle Honours - United Nations Operations - Korea 1950-1953

The award of any new honours will require a few introductory steps:

a.   Review and confirmation, or reissuance, of the conditions for selection and award of honours,

b.   Creation of an approved list of operations (see reference to the Battles Nomenclature Committee in the first reference), and

c.   Standing up of the applicable Regimental Committees to draft proposed regimental lists of honours.

These would of course, then be followed by necesary actions by the appropriate authorities.  From past examples (WWI, WWII, Korea), it is highly unlikely that the second step will be executed until after operations cease in order to avoid repetitive processes for selection approval and award of honours to any regiment.


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Re: Battle Honours for Afganistan
« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2007, 16:35:50 »
...and I as one of those 'old guys' who did 'nothing' we did do one thing exactly like you are doing now................whatever the Govt. of Canada asked of us at a particular time.

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Offline Teddy Ruxpin

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Re: Battle Honours for Afganistan
« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2007, 17:24:58 »

  Funny - 1PPCLI seems to have qualified for all those requirements. The soldiers in 1PPCLI deserve a Battle Honor for Panjawai.  The sad thing I'm seeing in this thread are the pencil pushers here trying to take away from the boys on the ground (Common occurrence in this Army I forgot).  Everyone has to step back and realize these last two tours are not your little vacations in Cyprus or your laughable march up the "whale" , this wasn't your little WOG posting in Camp Mirage, this was war fighting.  In ONE day of fighting in Panjawai my platoon and attachments took 4 killed and 10 wounded.  We were fighting an enemy estimated at numbers reaching 200. This Military needs to get off our high horse and realize our boys are killing and getting killed.

  I also see the same attitude about the Combat Infantry Badge.  I hear the complaining all over base, "Why should they get something that makes them stick out from all the rest of us".  Why? Because we did something this Army hasn't done since the days of Korea. We went out, actively engaged the enemy for 7 months and in laman-terms kicked their ***. 
 
  Saying Panjawai wasn't a battle is laughable and even sadder due to the fact you most likely sat on KAF for 7 months sipping your Tim Hortons.

/Rant Off     

I'm hoping that TheHead's hyperbole wasn't aimed at me, as he has no idea of what my personal service has entailed. He has, though, intruded upon what was an decent academic discussion with a pointless, arrogant rant.

Which brings me to my first point.  TheHead appears to claim that he's part of some elite, but I can virtually guarantee that he has no - as in zero - idea of what others' service in other operational theatres has entailed.  In fact, he has no - as in zero - idea (aside from that obtained from buddies in theatre) what the current rotation is going through, although he's better placed than most to guess.  All missions and all rotations are different, and, as Bruce points out, we all go where we're told. 

TheHead's post illustrates exactly what's wrong with things like combat action patches.  It promotes a false elitism that isn't warranted historically or institutionally and promotes the arrogance that The Head so vividly espouses.  "We're better than you wogs..."  He even uses the word, something that surely merits some sort of response, even if his post wasn't so offensive and condescending.

Yup, you've BTDT, buddy, and good on you.  You have your tour medal(s), and I sincerely hope your battalion merits a battle honour for an outstanding action under unbelievably adverse circumstances.  It isn't for me to decide.  But spare us your attitude and your assumptions, they denigrate your efforts on the battlefield and fly in the face of the concept of quiet professionalism.

Edit:  typo and to repair TheHead's moniker.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 20:52:23 by Teddy Ruxpin »
A man may fight for many things. His country, his friends, his principles, the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd mud-wrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock and a sack of French porn.

Dulce bellum inexpertis.

Offline geo

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Re: Battle Honours for Afganistan
« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2007, 21:37:45 »
+1 Teddy.

And for those Combat engineers who served alongside the Infantry and who don't carry battle honours (because we'd have too many to carry) I salute thehead's rant and my sappers .

 :salute: :salute: :salute: :cdn: :salute: :salute: :salute:
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Re: Battle Honours for Afganistan
« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2007, 22:05:40 »
+1 Teddy.

And for those Combat engineers who served alongside the Infantry and who don't carry battle honours (because we'd have too many to carry) I salute thehead's rant and my sappers .

 :salute: :salute: :salute: :cdn: :salute: :salute: :salute:
CHIMO!....or is that "UBIQUE", as I understand to stand for all the battles in which the engineers have participated: "Everywhere"

*nb: yes, gunners also have "UBIQUE", but of course, that means "all over the place" in their case ;)

(j/k)

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Re: Battle Honours for Afganistan
« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2007, 23:22:31 »

  Funny - 1PPCLI seems to have qualified for all those requirements. The soldiers in 1PPCLI deserve a Battle Honor for Panjawai.  The sad thing I'm seeing in this thread are the pencil pushers here trying to take away from the boys on the ground (Common occurrence in this Army I forgot).  Everyone has to step back and realize these last two tours are not your little vacations in Cyprus or your laughable march up the "whale" , this wasn't your little WOG posting in Camp Mirage, this was war fighting.  In ONE day of fighting in Panjawai my platoon and attachments took 4 killed and 10 wounded.  We were fighting an enemy estimated at numbers reaching 200. This Military needs to get off our high horse and realize our boys are killing and getting killed.

  I also see the same attitude about the Combat Infantry Badge.  I hear the complaining all over base, "Why should they get something that makes them stick out from all the rest of us".  Why? Because we did something this Army hasn't done since the days of Korea. We went out, actively engaged the enemy for 7 months and in laman-terms kicked their ***. 
 
  Saying Panjawai wasn't a battle is laughable and even sadder due to the fact you most likely sat on KAF for 7 months sipping your Tim Hortons.

/Rant Off     


I don't want to pick a fight here but isn't 1 criteria for getting a battle honour for a battle taking and holding the ground?  'cause that being the case; 1 RCR took Panjwayi during Op Medusa, which I believe was the first successfull push into that region.  And although there was a company of PPCLI (A Coy), I'm pretty sure there's some kind of criteria for the amount (Percentage) of a unit which has to be present in the battle to earn an honour... otherwise every reserve unit in LFCA would get one, and I don't think thats right.

Again, I stress the fact that I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm just trying to clairify what I'm sure will be a historical event.  The event being the 'Battle of Panjwayi', which, in my understanding, occured on 2 - 5 September, 2006 during Op Medusa, when 1 RCR (Charles Coy) let attacks into Pashmul, and the remainder of TF3-06 battle group (including RCDs and RCHA) took and held the positions around the 'white school' and the 'Mosque'... positions which are still being held to this day.

correct me if I'm wrong.
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Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Battle Honours for Afganistan
« Reply #45 on: February 06, 2007, 23:39:28 »
I'm going to step in here through the temporary lock to highlight a point.

RHFC_piper raises an intersting point regarding the percentage of a unit involved in an operation to be eligible for a Battle Honour. From the reference noted above:

Quote
Normally, the rule that will be applied is that headquarters and at least fifty percent of the sub-units of a unit must have been present.

However, the following should also be noted:

Quote
There may be exceptional cases where individual squadrons or companies took an important part in certain operations, and in such cases any claims submitted will be treated on their merits.

Notably, it is not exceptional in the current method of Task Force structures for individual subunits to be deployed with Battle Groups built on HQs from other regiments.  These company/squadrons (under command) do not normally deploy and fight by their Corps doctrines at the sub-unit level, nor are they operating independently, so these paragraphs don't quite apply:

Quote
Two particular extensions of this rule will be allowed for as follows:

(a)     where units such as armoured regiments, armoured car regiments, reconnaissance regiments or machine-gun battalions fought on a squadron or company basis, with squadrons or companies being attached to brigades or battalions for operations, honours may be awarded where fifty percent of the squadrons or companies were engaged without their regimental or battalion headquarters~. Where a unit had sub-units committed simultaneously to different operations only one award covering anyone period of time will be made;

(b)     where a regiment was represented in a theatre only by a squadron or a company operating independently, such as the independent machine gun company in an armoured division, honours may be awarded on the basis of fifty percent of the troops or platoons being present in battle. Where such troops or platoons were committed simultaneously to different operations, only one award will be made to cover anyone period of time.

This is one of the points that would require further analysis and, possibly, the updating of the terms and conditions for award of Battle Honours.   It is, for reasons described above, and this requirement to redefine conditions for Battle Honours that any expectations that Battle Honours should be awarded in the near term would be premature.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 23:48:23 by Michael O'Leary »

Offline Shec

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Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #46 on: September 03, 2008, 13:54:05 »
This may be a silly question that shows how out of touch and anachronistic I am but I'm wondering if those Militia units which have deployed contingents to Afghanistan will be awarded battle honours for their contibution to the campaign?  Thanks all !
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Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #47 on: September 03, 2008, 13:58:05 »
We have discussed battle honours before in general.

As for your specific question, the numbers involved from any particular Reserve unit will make it very unlikely for battle honours to be awarded unless there is a significant rewrite of the regulations.

Some related material can be found here

Offline sledge

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Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2008, 14:00:20 »
My guess would be only if the milita unit sent a complete unit. Like a platoon. Then yes. But not if they are attached into another unit.

Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2008, 14:01:55 »
My guess would be only if the milita unit sent a complete unit. Like a platoon. Then yes. But not if they are attached into another unit.

Start here for a baseline for level of participation required:

33.1 BATTLE HONOURS—THE SECOND WORLD WAR
http://regimentalrogue.com/battlehonours/secondworldwar-btlhnrs.htm

Quote
Percentage of Unit present in an Operation

13.     Normally, the rule that will be applied is that headquarters and at least fifty percent of the sub-units of a unit must have been present.

14.     Two particular extensions of this rule will be allowed for as follows:

(a)     where units such as armoured regiments, armoured car regiments, reconnaissance regiments or machine-gun battalions fought on a squadron or company basis, with squadrons or companies being attached to brigades or battalions for operations, honours may be awarded where fifty percent of the squadrons or companies were engaged without their regimental or battalion headquarters~. Where a unit had sub-units committed simultaneously to different operations only one award covering anyone period of time will be made;

(b)     where a regiment was represented in a theatre only by a squadron or a company operating independently, such as the independent machine gun company in an armoured division, honours may be awarded on the basis of fifty percent of the troops or platoons being present in battle. Where such troops or platoons were committed simultaneously to different operations, only one award will be made to cover anyone period of time.

15.     There may be exceptional cases where individual squadrons or companies took an important part in certain operations, and in such cases any claims submitted will be treated on their merits.