Canada moves to 2% GDP end of FY25/26 - PMMC

[Colin Parkinson]

Bugs must be absolutely horrendous?

Good fish = lots of bugs

 

[CBH99]

I'm starting to think someone in the PMO reads this forum.

Ottawa considering military equipment production deal with Ukraine, Defence Minister says

David McGuinty also says Canada will be able to access European loans through a planned EU-Canada military procurement partnership

www.theglobeandmail.com

Without paywall:
https://archive.ph/0WBPO

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Mate I thought we started talking about that BECAUSE of a previous media release...??

And that’s only a bit more to build roads into that part of the world - a good reminder for folks calling for those options for remote areas.

I literally had no idea terrain like that existed in Canada until just now...

Just reminds me that anytime a solution seems simple but hasn't been implimented, there's probably a complicating factor I'm unaware of. (Remembering this helps keep me humble)

 

[Kirkhill]

The terrain in Northern MB is no joke. Tens of thousands of sq km of this with untouched stands of the Boreal to boot.

View attachment 94310

Manitoba recently completed Bipole lll, a 500kv direct current line from generating plants in the north to Winnipeg. Direct Current lines are more efficient and have much less line losses but do require converter stations at either end to go from AC to DC and then the reverse from DC to AC. The line is 1400 kms in length and cost just over 6 billion dollars. Roughly $4.3 million per kilometer. The cost of running this line underground could be up to 10 times the cost.

$4.3M per kilometer!? Holy shit Batman...

Manitoba isn't the type of province to waste taxpayer dollars on unpractical things either...that's one expensive project

That is right now.
Here is the "what if" - maybe, at some indefinite point in the future.

Saskatchewan, Ontario to roll out mini-nuclear reactors

The GEH zero-emission reactors – each with enough power to fuel more than 200,000 homes - could be deployed by 2030s

www.westerninvestor.com

“The GE-Hitachi BWRX-300 is a 300 MWe water-cooled, natural circulation Small Modular Reactor (SMR) with passive safety systems,” according to the manufacturer.

Each of the 300 MWe SMRs cost between $1 billion to $1.5 billion and can provide enough electricity to power approximately 240,000 homes.

6 Billion for 1400 kms of wire or 4 to 6 SMRs. One every 3 to 400 km?

 

[Kirkhill]

Yep lol. That's what off is for.

Looks kind of like a frozen Bayou.

 

[lenaitch]

$4.3M per kilometer!? Holy shit Batman...

Manitoba isn't the type of province to waste taxpayer dollars on unpractical things either...that's one expensive project

Kinda sounds like a TTC transit project.

The subsea cable between NL and NS cost $1.7Bn for 170km.

6 Billion for 1400 kms of wire or 4 to 6 SMRs. One every 3 to 400 km?

Which would be fine if you had sufficient load every 3-400 km. You can't daisy-chain generation.

Given the history of nuclear plant development worldwide, I await the actual figure to build one to commissioning.

People get a little too excited about the term 'small modular'. Many envision something in a seacan you can drop into a remote FN or arctic community. Again, great if you had 240,000 households of load but I think the remote communities are a tad smaller. Also, many place struggle to develop and maintain the expertise to keep a water system running.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Kinda sounds like a TTC transit project.

The subsea cable between NL and NS cost $1.7Bn for 170km.


Which would be fine if you had sufficient load every 3-400 km. You can't daisy-chain generation.

Given the history of nuclear plant development worldwide, I await the actual figure to build one to commissioning.

People get a little too excited about the term 'small modular'. Many envision something in a seacan you can drop into a remote FN or arctic community. Again, great if you had 240,000 households of load but I think the remote communities are a tad smaller. Also, many place struggle to develop and maintain the expertise to keep a water system running.

I feel like Iqaluit/, Yellowknife and Whitehorse might be good candidates for SMRs.

 

[lenaitch]

I feel like Iqaluit/, Yellowknife and Whitehorse might be good candidates for SMRs.

I don't know a whole lot about SMRs but it would depend on how scalable they are. If they are anything like our Cando reactors, the answer is 'not much' as they are designed to operate at close to 100% thermal efficiency. I don't know if there is an accepted formula for converting 'household' to population, but it seems plunking an SMR designed to power 200,000 households into the City of Iqaluit , population 7500, might be a tad overkill.

 

[Maxman1]

Bugs must be absolutely horrendous?

Yep lol. That's what off is for.

 

[The Bread Guy]

... I literally had no idea terrain like that existed in Canada until just now...

You're far from alone in not being familiar with the scale and distances involved, just like I'm not familiar with the issues of density some of the other bits of Canada experience. After all, how would memes like this survive on the interwebs otherwise?

Ask 100 MP's in Ottawa how long it takes to drive across Ontario, and you'd be surprised at the range of numbers they'll give you - and how WAY low many of those estimates are

... Just reminds me that anytime a solution seems simple but hasn't been implimented, there's probably a complicating factor I'm unaware of. (Remembering this helps keep me humble)

I don't think dopiness and inefficiency is EVER completely zero in these situations, but often, scale/distances are a factor in Canadian infrastructure development for sure.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I don't know a whole lot about SMRs but it would depend on how scalable they are. If they are anything like our Cando reactors, the answer is 'not much' as they are designed to operate at close to 100% thermal efficiency. I don't know if there is an accepted formula for converting 'household' to population, but it seems plunking an SMR designed to power 200,000 households into the City of Iqaluit , population 7500, might be a tad overkill.

Wiki gives you a lot of food for thought Small modular reactor - Wikipedia

 

[MilEME09]

SMR has huge application in the north, where it can replace generators rather easily. I also see them as a key for emerging laser technology in terms of CUAS for military bases.

 

[Kirkhill]

SMR has huge application in the north, where it can replace generators rather easily. I also see them as a key for emerging laser technology in terms of CUAS for military bases.

And spare energy is never a bad thing. Somebody will always find a use for it.

District heating becomes a communal pool.

 

[Kirkhill]

Further to....

The Blue Lagoon reopened this morning

The Blue Lagoon reopened this morning. All operational units of the lagoon, which are open to day-goers, will open in the morning, but both hotels will be closed until Tuesday.

icelandmonitor.mbl.is

...

per @Colin Parkinson 's wiki reference

SMRs range between 5 MWe and 300 MWe

Commercial SMRs have been designed to deliver an electrical power output as low as 5 MWe (electric) and up to 300 MWe per module. SMRs may also be designed purely for desalinization or facility heating rather than electricity. These SMRs are measured in megawatts thermal MWt. Many SMR designs rely on a modular system, allowing customers to simply add modules to achieve a desired electrical output.

Small modular reactor - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Assuming something like 33% electrical efficiency that would mean to me that the reactor was equivalent to a 15 to 1500 MW boiler.

5 MWe is a wind turbine - that only operates 25% of the time.
5 MW is a package boiler for a small processing plant that operates as long as there is fuel.
5 MW is 5000 1kW households.


....

The Blue Lagoon info is that the lagoon holds something between 6 and 9 million liters of water that is refreshed every 40 hours.
It is fed with geothermal water at 38C.
The average air temp in Iceland is 5C.
4.186 kJ/kg-C.

My sums say that for 6,000,000 liters of water that pool costs Iceland 5.8 MW of heat.

A Blue Lagoon in Iqaluit?

....

As for load balancing - if grids can manage wind turbines when the wind doesn't blow and solar panels when the sun doesn't shine then I think they can manage a number of discrete point source generators or varying capacity.

 

[HavokFour]

And spare energy is never a bad thing. Somebody will always find a use for it.

District heating becomes a communal pool.

Greenhouses. Fresh produce being more readily available up north (and perhaps more affordable) can't be understated.

 

[lenaitch]

Wiki gives you a lot of food for thought Small modular reactor - Wikipedia

Thanks for that.

The Quilliq Energy Corp. (the Nunavut public provider) mentions 'micro modular reactors' in an annual report. It has a total installed capacity of about 53Mw for its 14,500 customers spread across 2Mn Km2 so science needs to come up with something a lot smaller than to ones recently announced. Grid distribution doesn't make a lot of sense given the geography and dispersed nature of the population. Neither does filling a hole with water just to burn off excess energy.

As for load balancing - if grids can manage wind turbines when the wind doesn't blow and solar panels when the sun doesn't shine then I think they can manage a number of discrete point source generators or varying capacity.

I'm not an electrical engineer but I don't see the applicability of grids in the arctic. The distances and terrain are massive obstacles. Generation and load have to balance in an AC system unless you integrate some kind of massive battery storage system. IF SMRs are anything like traditional reactors, they are baseline generation; their output can't be easily adjusted. A stand-alone SMR would have to be happy working in February as in July, so maybe there is merit in boiling off a pond full of water when load isn't otherwise there.

 

[KevinB]

Thanks for that.

The Quilliq Energy Corp. (the Nunavut public provider) mentions 'micro modular reactors' in an annual report. It has a total installed capacity of about 53Mw for its 14,500 customers spread across 2Mn Km2 so science needs to come up with something a lot smaller than to ones recently announced. Grid distribution doesn't make a lot of sense given the geography and dispersed nature of the population. Neither does filling a hole with water just to burn off excess energy.


I'm not an electrical engineer but I don't see the applicability of grids in the arctic. The distances and terrain are massive obstacles. Generation and load have to balance in an AC system unless you integrate some kind of massive battery storage system. IF SMRs are anything like traditional reactors, they are baseline generation; their output can't be easily adjusted. A stand-alone SMR would have to be happy working in February as in July, so maybe there is merit in boiling off a pond full of water when load isn't otherwise there.

Well it can run a ROPU too

 

[foresterab]

$4.3M per kilometer!? Holy shit Batman...

Manitoba isn't the type of province to waste taxpayer dollars on unpractical things either...that's one expensive project

Well...I figure around 2k for a frozen, no dirt work involved, winter log trail. Take it down to allow single lane traffic and summer haul and it's around $5/km. That's a 6-8m running surface.

Now...build something that all season, full width to allow traffic to pass, and gravelled. $100k/ km is a good starting point and if it's major roads then I'm told a million a km isn't out of reach.

https://rmalberta.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Transportation-and-Infrastructure-Position-Statements.pdf

Then I think about dealing with muskeg, remote areas and limited rock sources adjacent. There's a reason when they built the Alaska Highway there are stories about U/S equipment being dumped into the swamps to cut down the costs....building the road on a broken truck was cheaper than hauling more fill in. Of course they ended up rebuilding much of the intial road later...

The only advantage one has in many areas up north is you don't have re-purchase lands from private holders often or deal with infrastructure conflicts.

 

[Kirkhill]

Thanks for that.

The Quilliq Energy Corp. (the Nunavut public provider) mentions 'micro modular reactors' in an annual report. It has a total installed capacity of about 53Mw for its 14,500 customers spread across 2Mn Km2 so science needs to come up with something a lot smaller than to ones recently announced. Grid distribution doesn't make a lot of sense given the geography and dispersed nature of the population. Neither does filling a hole with water just to burn off excess energy.

I'm not an electrical engineer but I don't see the applicability of grids in the arctic. The distances and terrain are massive obstacles. Generation and load have to balance in an AC system unless you integrate some kind of massive battery storage system. IF SMRs are anything like traditional reactors, they are baseline generation; their output can't be easily adjusted. A stand-alone SMR would have to be happy working in February as in July, so maybe there is merit in boiling off a pond full of water when load isn't otherwise there.

Actually I am with you on that. The SMR is likely to replace the village generator. My random thought about "the grid" came from Manitoba (and Quebec) running power lines into the arctic. I agree with you. I am not sure that that is the most cost effective solution.

The pond is what I have been thinking about for my own use. Notions of putting in a 2 kW gas generator. After I have met demand and charged up my batteries the excess energy is going into a heat sink. That might as well be water. It might as well be a pool. Hot water heating.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Manitoba recently completed Bipole lll, a 500kv direct current line from generating plants in the north to Winnipeg. Direct Current lines are more efficient and have much less line losses but do require converter stations at either end to go from AC to DC and then the reverse from DC to AC. The line is 1400 kms in length and cost just over 6 billion dollars. Roughly $4.3 million per kilometer. The cost of running this line underground could be up to 10 times the cost.

I did not know DC was more efficient in transmission lines. Learn something new everyday!

 

[Stoker]

In regards to SMR's in remote Arctic communities and excess power. Could that not be funnelled to operate large community green houses to provide fresh produce to the communities?