Canada's tanks

[markppcli]

This.

We aren't the only cold place on earth, and a lot of our partner nations have done the R&D for us (See the DAME project, that will have spent assloads of time and money; only to come to the same BvS10 conclusion everyone else did a decade ago).

If it works in Norway, it'll work in Nunavut.

If anyone thinks the Battle of Nunavut is going to fought my mechanized artillery I doubt their strategic thinking.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

If anyone thinks the Battle of Nunavut is going to fought my mechanized artillery I doubt their strategic thinking.

Well not with that attitude

My main point was that a lot of our time and effort is wasted "Canadianizing" kit that works perfectly well in cold conditions, that meet or exceed our requirements.

That goes for tanks, SPG, AD, and all the piddling crap we spend 10 years trialing before putting out an RFP.

 

[OldSolduer]

Well not with that attitude

My main point was that a lot of our time and effort is wasted "Canadianizing" kit that works perfectly well in cold conditions, that meet or exceed our requirements.

That goes for tanks, SPG, AD, and all the piddling crap we spend 10 years trialing before putting out an RFP.

I am fully on board with that.

There is very little need to "Canadianize" something that works perfectly well at -40C.

Maybe a block heater....

 

[GK .Dundas]

I work on the odd theory that if it works in either a Korean summer (+40 ) or winter (-45 ) there's a pretty good chance that it just might work here.

 

[Prairie canuck]

My experiences with extended periods of -30 or more is anything running hydraulics needs to have a means of heating the oil as it became very sluggish and near frozen fluids put a lot of strain on seals and hoses. But if those concerns have been addressed in South Korean equipment then they should be worry free right?

 

[markppcli]

Well not with that attitude

My main point was that a lot of our time and effort is wasted "Canadianizing" kit that works perfectly well in cold conditions, that meet or exceed our requirements.

That goes for tanks, SPG, AD, and all the piddling crap we spend 10 years trialing before putting out an RFP.

Oh I completely agree. My comment was entirely meant to illustrate that point more.

 

[Ludoc]

Well not with that attitude

My main point was that a lot of our time and effort is wasted "Canadianizing" kit that works perfectly well in cold conditions, that meet or exceed our requirements.

That goes for tanks, SPG, AD, and all the piddling crap we spend 10 years trialing before putting out an RFP.

But if we don't Canadianize things how is GD supposed to afford to employ retired Sig Os to design radios that aren't compatible with our allies?

 

[Kirkhill]

Not dead yet.....

Another light brigade becomes heavy mechanized

The 127th Territorial Defense Brigade, established in 2022 as part of the Ukrainian Territorial Defense Forces, has become the second unit of its type to be converted into a heavy mechanized brigade.

militaryland.net

 

[Dana381]

My experiences with extended periods of -30 or more is anything running hydraulics needs to have a means of heating the oil as it became very sluggish and near frozen fluids put a lot of strain on seals and hoses. But if those concerns have been addressed in South Korean equipment then they should be worry free right?

Then you just don't shut it off. Ever. if you do then tow it into a shop. That's why a lot of Caterpillar engines are designed to check the oil while the engine is running.

 

[Prairie canuck]

Then you just don't shut it off. Ever. if you do then tow it into a shop. That's why a lot of Caterpillar engines are designed to check the oil while the engine is running.

The engines are not an issue as you say, don't turn them off. It's the hydraulics and the reservoir. Wrapping it in insulated tarps was somewhat successful. There was talk of running smaller engine cooling lines through the reservoir with valves to turn them on or off depending on the temps. Still not done as far as I know.

 

[Dana381]

The engines are not an issue as you say, don't turn them off. It's the hydraulics and the reservoir. Wrapping it in insulated tarps was somewhat successful. There was talk of running smaller engine cooling lines through the reservoir with valves to turn them on or off depending on the temps. Still not done as far as I know.

Interesting, most hydraulic systems run anytime the engine is running and create heat. Idling must not create enough heat in the units you are working with. There are heat exchangers designed for just such a purpose however space is likely an issue. The coolant lines through the reservoir is a good idea, also if they ever install a diesel coolant heater such as a Webasto or Espar it will heat the hydraulic oil as well.

 

[CBH99]

Not dead yet.....

Another light brigade becomes heavy mechanized

The 127th Territorial Defense Brigade, established in 2022 as part of the Ukrainian Territorial Defense Forces, has become the second unit of its type to be converted into a heavy mechanized brigade.

militaryland.net

'Yet' being the key word there...

I have a feeling a lot of Ukrainian line units are being renamed & rebadged without a whole lot of actual change happening to the unit itself these days.

 

[Underway]

If it works in Norway, it'll work in Nunavut.

Nunavut is actually the "high arctic desert" with tundra and sea ice. Northern Norway still has trees. Lots of tall coniferous trees. Its more akin to operating in Northern Ontario or Quebec than the arctic.

Our north of 60 is a far more difficult place to operate than the European north of 60. All this to say no, equipment that works there doesn't automatically work here just because they share the same lattitude.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Nunavut is actually the "high arctic desert" with tundra and sea ice. Northern Norway still has trees. Lots of tall coniferous trees. Its more akin to operating in Northern Ontario or Quebec than the arctic.

Our north of 60 is a far more difficult place to operate than the European north of 60. All this to say no, equipment that works there doesn't automatically work here just because they share the same lattitude.

It may have been overly simplistic, however, my point was more about Canada not having the market cornered on geographic or climate requirements for our equipment.

 

[Underway]

It may have been overly simplistic, however, my point was more about Canada not having the market cornered on geographic or climate requirements for our equipment.

Sure, and a BV series will work amazing in a lot of places that are not the high arctic. That's more a testament to a well designed vechicle than anything else. But my point is that the high arctic eats a lot of equipment for breakfast that "works other places". Due dilligence isn't the worst idea as frustrating as that may be.

I suspect they took way longer than they needed to make a decision though.

 

[GK .Dundas]

It may have been overly simplistic, however, my point was more about Canada not having the market cornered on geographic or climate requirements for our equipment.

One of the reasons I have tended to prefer American equipment aside from advanced technologies and scales of manufacturing. As well as shorter delivery distance is all of their equipment is designed to operate over 90 % of the world's conditions and terrain.
Which coincidentally pretty much mirrored by this country's condition and terrain.

 

[Kirkhill]

Nunavut is actually the "high arctic desert" with tundra and sea ice. Northern Norway still has trees. Lots of tall coniferous trees. Its more akin to operating in Northern Ontario or Quebec than the arctic.

Our north of 60 is a far more difficult place to operate than the European north of 60. All this to say no, equipment that works there doesn't automatically work here just because they share the same lattitude.

Our fluffy, puffy 60s era cold weather gear was not a match for either Gagetown or Norway. It soaked up moisture. It worked fine out west and presumably in the high north (dry cold donchano).

 

[Dana381]

Sure, and a BV series will work amazing in a lot of places that are not the high arctic. That's more a testament to a well designed vechicle than anything else. But my point is that the high arctic eats a lot of equipment for breakfast that "works other places". Due dilligence isn't the worst idea as frustrating as that may be.

I suspect they took way longer than they needed to make a decision though.

I remember seeing a documentary once about building in the arctic, they needed special steel for the buildings to take the cold. The narrator claimed the steel used down here would be too brittle at -50 and the buildings would collapse.

 

[Kirkhill]

Interesting conversation about tanks, stugs and HEAT.

Mark Urban, a historian and ex-tankie and author of one of the most well-thumbed books on my shelves "Fusiliers" discusses tanks and his new book Tank.

A discussion with Mark Urban about his new book: Tank.

A recording from Phillips P. OBrien's live video

phillipspobrien.substack.com

Other interesting comments about AVREs, Marders, Abrams and UGVs.

Worth the 45 minutes.

 

[FJAG]

Here's a thought provoking post from the Facebook "Battle Machines" forum.

Interesting way of developing an Infantry Fighting Vehicle (IFV) challenging convention by doing it backwards.

Most countries first develop a wheeled IFV or Armoured Personal Carrier (APC) before using the hull, usually an enlarged and reinforced version, to make a Fire Support Vehicle (FSV) that usually mounts a 105mm calibre main gun.
The Japanese, however, took the opposite direction in first developing the FSV in the form of the Mitsubishi Type 16 Maneuver Combat Vehicle (MCV) before using it as a base to develop other variants.
This is likely an inspired decision as designs developed in the conventional manner often suffer from excessive weight gain as the need to mount the heavier 105mm main gun and larger turret often compromised the vehicle's balance and manueverablility.
Here's an example of a design that likely benefited from losing weight instead as the Type 24's 30mm autocannon is lighter than the Type 16's 105mm gun.

Here's the Type 16 MCV

It then became the basis of four variants by way of the Common Tactical Wheeled Vehicle program which included an APC (including ambulance), a recce and surveillance vehicle, a mortar carrier and, of course, the Type 24 wheeled IFV.

We've been playing the process wrong the whole time. First the US failed to produce a decent MGS on the Stryker chassis and now we're contemplating loading a 155mm L52 RCH on a LAV 6 or 10X10.

I'm certainly not advocating for adoptions of the Type 16, but do think that when designing a common vehicle fleet, starting with the heaviest need and then subtracting elements, variant-by-variant, is a sound design process. A lesson for the next generation (maybe of a tracked fleet).