JTAC Vs FAC

[CT57]

If I understand correctly JTAC’s job is the coordination of fire assets, while the FAC’s job is bringing fire from air assets onto a specific target. Is this correct?

 

[FJAG]

I'll take a first stab at this as I'm an old-time FAC. @markppcli will undoubtedly chime in as well as he's a JTAC.

FAC's have been around since WW2 and came into their own in Vietnam. There were two types of FACs: air force fighter pilots who were assigned to control ground attack aircraft either from the ground or from a small aircraft of their own; and army personnel - often artillery officers - who were trained to call in and control airstrikes. I'm one of the latter.

Over the years the USAF turned the job of calling in airstrikes from the ground to NCOs as well as some pilots all of who were specially trained and qualified to do the job. The USAF changed the term from FAC to JTAC. Eventually the term migrated into the lexicon of other NATO nations including Canada.

By the time Canada began its commitment in Afghanistan, our system was changing. Since most of the aircraft were American (as well as some other NATO aircraft but no Canadian) the Americans required JTAC certification in theatre and Canada agreed to train and certify its FACs to a common standard and started to adopt the JTAC title. For the most part, Canadian JTACs were still artillery officers or sergeants working out of forward artillery officer detachments in forward areas in contact with the enemy. During the war that changed a bit and there are now NCOs from arms other than artillery that are assigned to work in artillery regiments alongside the artillery JTACs.

The job for FACs and JTACs was/is essentially the same although the training and certification of JTACs these days is much more complex and strenuous then it was for ground FACs back in my day. Both jobs involve coordinating air assets assigned to you or available to you and then controlling the actual airstrike. While it wasn't cheap to train us as FACs back in the 70s, it's become very expensive to train JTACs as they need to do many more runs in more conditions and situations during training than we did.

 

[markppcli]

JTAC can be best viewed as a standard / qualification that’s recognized across a wide swath of nations, mostly NATO and partner forces. As @FJAG said fundamentally the job isn’t that much different, although standards and expectations are a bit more rigorous due to the memorandums of understand. I don’t think FACs got 18 month evaluations and spot evaluation or had strict currency requirements, but I could be wrong. Most critically JTACs can exercise TAC with any coalition air craft assigned to do CAS, by virtue of common standards and procedures.

It does tend to be NCOs on the JTAC job now - just by virtue of how long we stick around compared to officers who might get a year in the OPs if they’re lucky. So in a FOO party the FOO and DC are running the surface fires and the JTAC the air side. While our TACP route air craft to JTACs.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I was a FAC in the 1990s and there was no strict currency requirement that I can recall. Possibly if you went longer than 6 months, the Bde FAC had to check you out again.

I was in a place where I controlled so often that it never really came up, in my case. Once I stopped controlling, I stopped for good.

I had a pretty good variety of air frames under my belt- T-33s, CF-18s, A-4s, A-10s and F-16s.

I saw a B-52 strike, A-6s and AC-130s, but none of those were my missions.

We only controlled during daylight hours in the old days and it was all done with voice comms.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I was a FAC in the 1990s and there was no strict currency requirement that I can recall. Possibly if you went longer than 6 months, the Bde FAC had to check you out again.

I was in a place where I controlled so often that it never really came up, in my case. Once I stopped controlling, I stopped for good.

 

[FJAG]

I don’t think FACs got 18 month evaluations and spot evaluation or had strict currency requirements, but I could be wrong. Most critically JTACs can exercise TAC with any coalition air craft assigned to do CAS, by virtue of common standards and procedures.

You're not wrong at least until 1981 when I transferred branches. After my initial course qualification I was never required to recertify. As FACs in those days we could also call in any NATO aircraft. I went over to Germany on one month-long series of exercises specifically to work as a FAC with 4 CMBG as well as two German division headquarters (as a member of what is best described as the division's air liaison staff) Throughout, I was controlling Canadian, American, Brit, French and German aircraft.

It does tend to be NCOs on the JTAC job now - just by virtue of how long we stick around compared to officers who might get a year in the OPs if they’re lucky. So in a FOO party the FOO and DC are running the surface fires and the JTAC the air side. While our TACP route air craft to JTACs.

That's exactly right. In my day your posting as a FOO would be as a junior captain for two years and around four months of that at the beginning was the advanced gunnery course in Gagetown. Then you had to move on to more senior staff positions or additional command and staff courses. The costs associated with both the qualification and recertification these days makes that quite impractical. On top of that I think our experience in Afghanistan confirmed that NCOs can do the job very well and it leaves the FOO free to orchestrate all of the incoming fire support and monitor the tactical situation. It's a much better allocation of tasks then it was in my day.

 

[markppcli]

I was a FAC in the 1990s and there was no strict currency requirement that I can recall. Possibly if you went longer than 6 months, the Bde FAC had to check you out again.

I was in a place where I controlled so often that it never really came up, in my case. Once I stopped controlling, I stopped for good.

I had a pretty good variety of air frames under my belt- T-33s, CF-18s, A-4s, A-10s and F-16s.

I saw a B-52 strike, A-6s and AC-130s, but none of those were my missions.

We only controlled during daylight hours in the old days and it was all done with voice comms.

Right now there’s… shit around a dozen currency’s I need to hit every six months: type 1,2,3 bomb; on target and coordinate; day and night; laser; ir; urban procedures; etc etc. Then theres the JMTL stuff that’s 18 month.

Still mostly voice comms, but night CAS is a requirement.

 

[SupersonicMax]

We’re doing more and more VMF and Link 16 CAS, at least with US Forces. Do you participate in Ex HUNGRY HORSE in the Adirondack Range?

 

[markppcli]

We’re doing more and more VMF and Link 16 CAS, at least with US Forces. Do you participate in Ex HUNGRY HORSE in the Adirondack Range?

Sure do, I was in Latvia for the last one though. We do a fair bit of DACAS stuff whenever we work in Cold Lake. It’s just very finicky, and obviously very platform dependant. There’s likely some issues that are going to come up as the army phases out the 152 A and shifts to TSM but that’s probably something best discussed on other means.

 

[brihard]

There’s likely some issues that are going to come up as the army phases out the 152 A and shifts to TSM but that’s probably something best discussed on other means.

Heh. He made a funny.

 

[CT57]

Thank you all for the responses. Can a JTAC or FOO for that matter call on other assets such as naval gun fire and/or rockets?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

JTAC, no.

FOO- yes.

 

[KevinB]

JTAC, no.

FOO- yes.

JTAC's down here can do all types of calls for fire.
I would be surprised if they can't do Arty and Mortar in Canada.

 

[FJAG]

JTAC's down here can do all types of calls for fire.
I would be surprised if they can't do Arty and Mortar in Canada.

If a FOO does his job right, everyone in his detachment will be able to call in mortars and guns within a week of getting there.

This photo happens to be my tech sergeant doing a mission (that's me in the middle) but all the dvr/sigs got to do shoots as well. Did a few fire plans with three of us adjusting three targets simultaneously.



In Afghanistan, the JTACs were primarily arty FOOs and FOO techs so how the functions were split up at any given time varied with the tactical situation (as it should).

 

[Good2Golf]

@FJAG were you ABFAC-qualified or was that just our Kiowa folks?

 

[FJAG]

@FJAG were you ABFAC-qualified or was that just our Kiowa folks?

No. Purely ground FAC. I flew several times in Kiowas to do airborne fire missions albeit many of our Kiowa pilots were former AirOP qualified L19 pilots at the time and could shoot rings around me in the air so certainly didn't need me up there.

We took the FAC course as part of the Advanced gunnery course but rarely had the chance to use it. In Pet I think the only time I ever saw fast air would be during the annual fire power demonstrations we did for staff courses and politicians. I can't even recall who FAC'd those. It wasn't me and may very well have been 427.

 

[markppcli]

JTAC, no.

FOO- yes.

I can call fires. In fact sending SEAD fire missions are a job requirement.

 

[Lumber]

Thank you all for the responses. Can a JTAC or FOO for that matter call on other assets such as naval gun fire ....

Even if you could, do you really want to?

 

[dapaterson]

Even if you could, do you really want to?

I Obviously Want Artillery from naval units

 

[markppcli]

Even if you could, do you really want to?

Yeah fire is fire. If there’s a good target I’m not really too fussed about where the effects come from.