The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[KevinB]

We know the old EA6B technically was stealthily also. By blacking out the airspace. But it would jam, confuse and scatter signals all across the spectrum. Similar role the Growler can do and other platforms can do.

The pedant in me would say that is not stealth - but the opposite.
Instead of nothing, there is everything. Which for some operations/applications will have the same desired affect, and others not at all

- I will step down from my soapbox now

But the F35 was built on sensor fusion,stealth and command and control.
A F35 sqn in theory would bring a level of command and control never seen in a modern battlefield. Eliminating the need for AWACS similar platforms in the battle space.
If it all works in practice is to be seen.

I'm still not convinced that it will eliminate the need for an AWACS - as if the F-35's are transmitting the amount of data needed to fill the air picture, then they won't be very stealthy.
Emissions control is a big thing regardless if your out for a walk, flying, riding the waves, or underneath the waves. There are a lot of folks in senior positions that seem to miss that while one can passively accept some data - that whatever is pushing out data is going to be a fairly large beacon, and I am not a convert to the idea that the amount of data "required" can be done easily, or as resistant to detection and interference as some believe against a Near Pear State Actor.

We are seeing a switch from large AWACS plane to smaller platforms. With different setups. Is interesting to see. The United States has been leading the charge.
Time will tell.

Personally I think the decision to forgo the E-7 in favor of Spacial assets and the E-2 are utterly in the wrong direction.
It smacks to me of "last war'ism" and ideas of operating AEWAC above conflict areas.

 

[Remius]

If I were King/PM/advisor for a day, in the current climate, here’s what I’d do:

- Assess a pure-NORAD min F-35 fleet. I agree with you, it is likely more than 16. I don’t know the particular task and force generation sortie rate to support that since I didn’t do any hard Cheyenne Mtn/Peterson AFB time, but my gut says it would be in the mid-30s to low-40s area as a min. Intent would be to address Continental defence/se requirements for: a) valid alliance reasons; and b) address the past ‘not doing our share’ rhetoric. I would commit Canada to purchase this many F-35s…and order them.

- for the Expeditionary role, non-NORAD role, I would think of a fleet of Rafale similar size to the Continental defence/se requirements. The Rafale is no slouch in its own right. More than likely far more operationally capable than some of the “5th Gen” fighters out there (Su-57 anyone).

This.

We likely need more than 16 and having 16 is useless. Up it to NORAD commitments or at least enough for continental defence and then look elsewhere for expeditionary commitments.

Enough to not completely upset the unpredictable types south of us. Strengthens our diversified alliances and appeases Canadians who want nothing to do with more American purchases.

Would probably piss off everyone but to much lower degree than an all or nothing approach to this.

 

[Czech_pivo]

This.

We likely need more than 16 and having 16 is useless. Up it to NORAD commitments or at least enough for continental defence and then look elsewhere for expeditionary commitments.

Enough to not completely upset the unpredictable types south of us. Strengthens our diversified alliances and appeases Canadians who want nothing to do with more American purchases.

Would probably piss off everyone but to much lower degree than an all or nothing approach to this.

Agreed.

The 'old' number of 88 airframes was agreed upon in the 'old world', pre-Trump and 'pre-2%, moving to 3.5%. I'm in the camp that when the numbers come out it will be north of 88.

 

[CBH99]

We know the old EA6B technically was stealthily also. By blacking out the airspace. But it would jam, confuse and scatter signals all across the spectrum. Similar role the Growler can do and other platforms can do.
But the F35 was built on sensor fusion,stealth and command and control.
A F35 sqn in theory would bring a level of command and control never seen in a modern battlefield. Eliminating the need for AWACS similar platforms in the battle space.
If it all works in practice is to be seen.

We are seeing a switch from large AWACS plane to smaller platforms. With different setups. Is interesting to see. The United States has been leading the charge.
Time will tell.

Question for those who can answer...

With the F-35 bringing that unprecidented C2 capability, is the smaller AWACS platform even necessary?

Is the reason the US is going all in on space based assets because they feel the F-35 can provide a similar level of sensing & networking as the AWACS has, so feel like they have that capability still?



(Someone mentioned putting all of their eggs in one basket, re space based assets - leaves them vulnerable. I'm sure they've thought of that though. So maybe they aren't putting them all in one basket, but their 'air domain C2' just looks a lot different now than it did during the era of the E-3?)




Edit - Nevermind, KevinB kinda answered the question.

 

[Good2Golf]

Question for those who can answer...

With the F-35 bringing that unprecidented C2 capability, is the smaller AWACS platform even necessary?

Is the reason the US is going all in on space based assets because they feel the F-35 can provide a similar level of sensing & networking as the AWACS has, so feel like they have that capability still?

(Someone mentioned putting all of their eggs in one basket, re space based assets - leaves them vulnerable. I'm sure they've thought of that though. So maybe they aren't putting them all in one basket, but their 'air domain C2' just looks a lot different now than it did during the era of the E-3?)

Edit - Nevermind, KevinB kinda answered the question.

Like your financial advisor would recommend for a diversified portfolio, so too should one not count on a single source of battlespace awareness. F-35s collaborate to an informed, networked battlespace but don’t do it on their own.

Recall the Pakistani AEW/AWACS plane that guided the PAF’s fighter to within close enough distance unseen that their long range missile shots took out the Indian’s Rafale? AEW/AWACS in the right place and time (a lot longer in the air than a unitary F-35) are valuable parts of the see and kill chains.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I willing to take the over/under numbers that Carney is hoping to link Tuesday's meeting with Trump to an announcement on the F35, HiMars and some positive trade news. Otherwise, why bother going to meet Trump.

 

[JLB50]

Given that at least some of the fighters will be the F-35, is the Saab the only contender remaining? Is the Rafale totally out of the picture at this point?

 

[dapaterson]

Given that at least some of the fighters will be the F-35, is the Saab the only contender remaining? Is the Rafale totally out of the picture at this point?

Twin Otter with a shotgun enters the conversation.