Replacing the Subs

[Fishbone Jones]

It's a fine Canadian tradition; Sir John A started it.

https://thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/pacific-scandal

"Politicians are the same all over. They promise to build bridges even when there are no rivers."

Nikita Khrushchev

Still doesn't change the fact that our government is dysfunctional on a global scale.

 

[HavokFour]

An exciting development.

Korea, Canada form landmark security and defense cooperation partnership - The Korea Times

GYEONGJU, North Gyeongsang Province — President Lee Jae Myung and Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney announced a landmark road map to deepen bilat...

www.koreatimes.co.kr

 

[PrairieFella]

It provides us with a significant amount of sovereign and stealthy strike capabilities that no other Canadian platform can boast.

A few dozen nuclear warheads on those cruise missiles should do the trick to smarten up some of the more belligerent neighbours

(Or piss off the Russkis royally)

 

[Lumber]

Still doesn't change the fact that our government is dysfunctional on a global scale.

Then you must not read much about how 'well functioning' most other nations are. Canada has its issues, but we're a well oiled machine compared to most of the world's governments.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Here’s some machine oil …

 

[Colin Parkinson]

An exciting development.

Korea, Canada form landmark security and defense cooperation partnership - The Korea Times

GYEONGJU, North Gyeongsang Province — President Lee Jae Myung and Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney announced a landmark road map to deepen bilat...

www.koreatimes.co.kr

People might forget that relationship was bought in blood, many, many years ago.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I don't think the Korean have ever forgotten, just like the Dutch still remember.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I don't think the Korean have ever forgotten, just like the Dutch still remember.

Koreans mostly no, but Canadians mostly yes. Germany is like: "Canada fought in Korea?"

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Germans haven't fought anyone since their last little disaster, nor have they really paid attention to who is fighting where. So what did you expect?

P.S.: The Germans don't usually like it when Canadians are the ones they are fighting.

 

[OldSolduer]

I'm staring into a crystal ball:

The current government will fall due to a successful non confidence vote. Sub purchase will be placed on hold. The LPC will blame the CPC for no submarines.

Next election the CPC are in a minority government situation and start the negotiations for new subs. The LPC in opposition will decry the purchase as being too war like and want the purchase scuttled.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I'm staring into a crystal ball:

The current government will fall due to a successful non confidence vote. Sub purchase will be placed on hold. The LPC will blame the CPC for no submarines.

Next election the CPC are in a minority government situation and start the negotiations for new subs. The LPC in opposition will decry the purchase as being too war like and want the purchase scuttled.

I hope you are dead wrong.

 

[OldSolduer]

I hope you are dead wrong.

So do I, but knowing what the LPC has done in the past does not make me very optimistic.

 

[calculus]

So do I, but knowing what the LPC has done in the past does not make me very optimistic.

Except for one thing: Poilievre is sinking amongst Canadians, and he's probably going to want to prop this government up if he expects to stay in power beyond Tuesday.

Mark Carney leads Pierre Poilievre in net favourability by 58 points

Prime Minister Mark Carney leads Conservative Party leader Pierre Poilievre in net favourability by 58 points.

cultmtl.com

 

[Underway]

I'm staring into a crystal ball:

The current government will fall due to a successful non confidence vote. Sub purchase will be placed on hold. The LPC will blame the CPC for no submarines.

Next election the CPC are in a minority government situation and start the negotiations for new subs. The LPC in opposition will decry the purchase as being too war like and want the purchase scuttled.

Can you give me a quote where someone (in the last 30 years) actually voted that "the purchase was to war like?"

I get they would proritize social spending (Trudeau plural) or cost cutting (Harper, Cretien) etc... but aside from the Bloc (who vote against Canada) and the NDP (who generally have the peacniks though there is an undercurrent of "protect the state" in their caucus because you know... communism) and perhaps some irrelevant backbenchers in the LPC who will do what they are told, I can't recall anyone of substance actually going against something because it was "to war like".

That feels like either overblowing one irrelevant politicians tweets or a zombie lie (something that was true but isn't true anymore and keeps coming back to life but now is wrong).

And if the CPC cut the subs, then they are actually the ones to blame, so of course the LPC should blame them. Because they did the cutting.

Harper was the CAF's worst enemy after 2008 despite starting strong in reversing come Cretien damage. Trudeau continued the direction. The last pro military government before the current one, that was actually promilitary in actions was Mulrony. in the 1980s!!


Here's my prediction. The military industrial complex that is slowly being created within Canada, particularly around shipbuilding will continue no matter who is in government, especially if Davie is included. That will survive successive minority gov'ts. Including the submarines. Because that contract will be in place before the minority government falls.

 

[Kirkhill]

Can you give me a quote where someone (in the last 30 years) actually voted that "the purchase was to war like?"

I get they would proritize social spending (Trudeau plural) or cost cutting (Harper, Cretien) etc... but aside from the Bloc (who vote against Canada) and the NDP (who generally have the peacniks though there is an undercurrent of "protect the state" in their caucus because you know... communism) and perhaps some irrelevant backbenchers in the LPC who will do what they are told, I can't recall anyone of substance actually going against something because it was "to war like".

That feels like either overblowing one irrelevant politicians tweets or a zombie lie (something that was true but isn't true anymore and keeps coming back to life but now is wrong).

And if the CPC cut the subs, then they are actually the ones to blame, so of course the LPC should blame them. Because they did the cutting.

Harper was the CAF's worst enemy after 2008 despite starting strong in reversing come Cretien damage. Trudeau continued the direction. The last pro military government before the current one, that was actually promilitary in actions was Mulrony. in the 1980s!!


Here's my prediction. The military industrial complex that is slowly being created within Canada, particularly around shipbuilding will continue no matter who is in government, especially if Davie is included. That will survive successive minority gov'ts. Including the submarines. Because that contract will be in place before the minority government falls.

Harper was your worst enemy after 2011. When your GOFOs started ignoring orders to reorganize.

Harper's Minister of Defence, Peter MacKay, explicitly hired a Chief of Transformation, to reconfigure DND.
There was resistance to the recommendations. Feet were dragged.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Harper was your worst enemy after 2011. When your GOFOs started ignoring orders to reorganize.

Harper's Minister of Defence, Peter MacKay, explicitly hired a Chief of Transformation, to reconfigure DND.
There was resistance to the recommendations. Feet were dragged.

Andrew Leslie?

 

[Kirkhill]

Andrew Leslie?

Yes. Alzheimers....

 

[Czech_pivo]

I'll just drop this year.

South Korea’s New Nuclear Submarine Capability and Canada’s Security Options​

South Korea’s pursuit of nuclear-powered submarines (SSNs) represents a major leap in its defence-industrial and technological maturity. For Canada, which seeks to purchase as many as 12 diesel-electric submarines, this development is highly relevant. If South Korea demonstrates credible nuclear propulsion know-how, it will likely strengthen its export competitiveness and reinforce Canada’s perception of South Korea as a high-end defence partner. It could also allow for a re-think of the wisdom of purchasing 12 conventionally powered boats under the CPSP and prompt the Canadian government to consider instead a mix of diesel-electrics in the medium-term and conventionally armed, nuclear-powered, SSNs in the longer-term.

South Korea’s New Nuclear Submarine Capability and Canada's Security Options - Policy Magazine

U.S. President Donald Trump announced on October 29th that he had granted South Korea approval to build a nuclear-powered submarine. The President said the

www.policymagazine.ca

 

[Lumber]

I'll just drop this year.

South Korea’s New Nuclear Submarine Capability and Canada’s Security Options​

South Korea’s pursuit of nuclear-powered submarines (SSNs) represents a major leap in its defence-industrial and technological maturity. For Canada, which seeks to purchase as many as 12 diesel-electric submarines, this development is highly relevant. If South Korea demonstrates credible nuclear propulsion know-how, it will likely strengthen its export competitiveness and reinforce Canada’s perception of South Korea as a high-end defence partner. It could also allow for a re-think of the wisdom of purchasing 12 conventionally powered boats under the CPSP and prompt the Canadian government to consider instead a mix of diesel-electrics in the medium-term and conventionally armed, nuclear-powered, SSNs in the longer-term.

South Korea’s New Nuclear Submarine Capability and Canada's Security Options - Policy Magazine

U.S. President Donald Trump announced on October 29th that he had granted South Korea approval to build a nuclear-powered submarine. The President said the

www.policymagazine.ca

There's no way we're switching to nuke boats.

 

[Czech_pivo]

There's no way we're switching to nuke boats.

Agreed.
For now.
But, if we go with the SK boats and the relationship turns out to be a solid one, mutually beneficial for both sides. Solid investment on both the WC and EC in terms of a supply/maintenance facilities and job numbers and lets say the SK partner with Cameco for their uranium or with Ontario Power for nuc knowledge going into their new boats. Then 20-25yrs down the road when it comes time to begin the planning to replace our existing 12 SK conventional subs, we very well could go down the path of SK nuc boats, conventionally armed.

Please remember we were well down the path of getting 12 nuc subs under Mulroney in the early 90s. If the world continues down the path of its current ugliness and the US continues to move away from being our crutch, tough decisions will need to be made 20-25yrs down the road.

If the SK's build nuc boats, I'm going out on a limb and will predict that Japan will be next up and then the Germans. Who will be left to produce us a conventional sub in 25yrs? The Swedes? The Spanish? India? It very well could be that the entire western market of conventional subs will be dried up and gone 25yrs from now.