09/10 Budget Impact on PRes - Unit stand-downs, Class B Freeze, and so on!

[Jarnhamar]

A big factor is distance IMO.

If a reservists takes a class B contract somewhere they are not obligated to train with their parent unit but are invited to do so.
We had soldiers soldiers on a short few month class B tasking just about 2 hours away. We assumed they would not be down for Thursday night training.  Thats 2 hours away. If they were in the same city (a la Ottawa) then why can't they make the extra effort and show up to work?

In my (our) case we prompted them to attend weekend ex's with the unit- and why hell not. Just because their weekends are paid for does not mean they can't support the unit that sent them there in the first place. It also meant they would be IBTS qualified and we wouldn't have to play catch up with them later.

Some soldiers will go out of their way to support their unit. I had to tell two soldiers in my section NO stay put. They were in Meaford on a drivers course and they were doing everything they could to get a ride to Petawawa for a weekend ex then back to Meaford. That's devotion.
At the same time I've had soldiers whom I've "thrown a bone to" and got them nice class A taskings during the week (same city) and they don't bother to show up for a Thursday night of training since they already got paid for the day.

It's not a rule but if someone is on a class B contract in the same city it behooves them to go a little further and support their unit. I know as far as I'm concerned I won't do anyone any favors for work  who have a shitty attitude. It's usually the senior guys to who are bad for that (up to and including a junior leader who tried telling two privates not to attend weekend ex's because it made him look bad).
It's an unwritten rule but when you're on class B and it's feasible usually it's expected that you show up for important training.

(Respectfully) Brihard's unit IS pretty bad for phantom class B guys.  I remember a Sgt ( with 10 years) and I bumping into someone with his cap badge overseas who the sgt had never met before.

 

[George Wallace]

It boils down to the morals, ethics and dedication of the individuals. 

At the same time one can not be expected to work five days a week, evenings and then weekends on end to support the Unit.  There is a life outside of the Reserves, be it family or just friends, and some down time is necessary for one's mental health.  In Garrison one does not have to work 24 and 7.  On Exercise or Deployment it is different, but there is no need to do so for any long period of time at the Unit.

Hope that sorts out some of what has been posted so far, that may make people think that we are painting all Class B with the same brush.

 

[Haggis]

This is extremely rare - few units will post a class B in RPSR with the promise of "Fin Code to Follow".  Indeed, any class B employment message will include the fin code.

It's more common than many realize.

I sit across the cube farm wall from the guy who is working on the Class B rationalization for the Army Reserve.  You'd be surprised to see how many Class B's are paid for by the parent unit in RPSR and the funds are (either simultaneously or retroactively) recovered from the employing unit's fin code.  As I said, in these cases the member appears  to be on the Army Reserve payroll, regardless of who he actually works for.

What regulation is it that governs this?

CF Military Personnel Instruction 20-04:

2.15 Voluntary Reserve Service while on Cl “B” or “C” Reserve Service
A member on Cl "B" or "C" Reserve Service may, with the mutual approval of all units involved voluntarily continue to serve with a unit, subject to the limitations at para 2.13(b). This service shall be performed in the same rank that the member is authorized to wear on the Cl "B" or "C" Reserve Service. Approval of this service depends on factors such as distance between the two units, time available, and other personal, CF and/or operational requirements. There is no obligation on the member to perform this type of duty. The following conditions apply:

a.it must be authorized in writing prior to commencement. Administrative details are detailed at ref A;
b.on any calendar day, reservists are only entitled to be placed on one Cl of Reserve Service, therefore the members shall only receive pay for either the Cl “B” or “C” Reserve Service rate of pay to which the member is entitled by CBIs;
c.allowances, when authorized, are still applicable; and
d.the member may be granted short leave IAW DAOD 5060-0, Leave by the employing unit to compensate for the service the member performed..

Annex D (which is not available. on the Internet) places the onus on the employing unit to justify why a member is refused the opportunity to parade.

I know a number of Class B guys, all of whom are taking up unfilled reg force spots. They work with the unit they're employed at, doing their jobs alongside their regforce counterparts. They go where they're told, when they're told, and have never been expected to show up at their home unit. Some of them haven't been there in years.

If they've been there for years then they should be transferrred to the employing unit (EU) or a suitable PRL.  Remaining on the unit strength only ties up a line serial, hampering recruiting and successsion planning.

The employing unit doesn't like letting them go for career courses, which is unsurprising since it's a short term contract.

Completely understandable on short term contracts.  But on contracts of a year or more, the member should be afforded the opportunity to take career courses.  However some EUs aren't accomodating because the member "was hired at a specific rank for a specific purpose" and allowing him to qualify for promotion means that he may leave.

 

[Brasidas]

It's more common than many realize.

I sit across the cube farm wall from the guy who is working on the Class B rationalization for the Army Reserve.  You'd be surprised to see how many Class B's are paid for by the parent unit in RPSR and the funds are (either simultaneously or retroactively) recovered from the employing unit's fin code.  As I said, in these cases the member appears  to be on the Army Reserve payroll, regardless of who he actually works for.

CF Military Personnel Instruction 20-04:

2.15 Voluntary Reserve Service while on Cl “B” or “C” Reserve Service
A member on Cl "B" or "C" Reserve Service may, with the mutual approval of all units involved voluntarily continue to serve with a unit, subject to the limitations at para 2.13(b). This service shall be performed in the same rank that the member is authorized to wear on the Cl "B" or "C" Reserve Service. Approval of this service depends on factors such as distance between the two units, time available, and other personal, CF and/or operational requirements. There is no obligation on the member to perform this type of duty.

And the operational line looks like the last one. There is no obligation for buddy to show up for class A training days under this reg. He has to ask for permission before he's even allowed to show up at his old unit. I've got no problem with buddy showing up at his unit for IBTS if he wants to, but I can see units being a little optimistic to expect them to show up for most unit training.

That said, if there's another LFCA-approved policy saying they've got to show up, then I guess they've got to.

If they've been there for years then they should be transferrred to the employing unit (EU) or a suitable PRL.  Remaining on the unit strength only ties up a line serial, hampering recruiting and successsion planning.
Completely understandable on short term contracts.  But on contracts of a year or more, the member should be afforded the opportunity to take career courses.  However some EUs aren't accomodating because the member "was hired at a specific rank for a specific purpose" and allowing him to qualify for promotion means that he may leave.

Given that I'm thinking of a guy whose unit has had to argue in excess  of a year against the "was hired at a specific rank for a specific purpose" in order to get on PLQ, I can understand why he'd want to stay on with a unit that'd stick up for him. If they're on good terms with their unit, and the unit expects to get somebody back with some solid experience down the road, both parties can be happy with the arrangement.

 

[George Wallace]

DND and the CF have encouraged the Public Sector to give Reservists time off to train.  I have noticed that DND and the CF are the worse offenders when it does come to not giving Reservists on Class B time to train, deploy or go on course.

Brasidas

Just a note:  A person on Class B can not sign for Class A pay.  (If that was what you were indicating.)


[Edit to add.]  I have also noticed that DND and the CF are the worse offenders when it does come to not giving Reservists working for DND as civilians time to train, deploy or go on course.

 

[Brasidas]

Brasidas

Just a note:  A person on Class B can not sign for Class A pay.  (If that was what you were indicating.)

I understand that. My concern was regarding others' expectations of a reservist being obligated to regularly show up back at their unit while being on class B.

Your point's taken regarding employing units being somewhat less than enthusiastic about accommodating a reservist parading with their home unit, and I basically agree with your earlier post.  My friends are all in good shape in that they decide when to participate with their unit, which is pretty much just mess dinners. I've heard stories of folks being pressured by their unit, however, being told that they're supposed to show up for virtually everything back at their reserve unit at the same time as their class B unless it was a direct conflict (eg. I can't show up for IBTS 'cause I'm in Wainwright).

That's hearsay and I haven't recounted those stories as I have the acceptedly absent class B'ers from my unit, but some of the comments about what class B'ers were expected to do got me motivated to discuss these expectations.

 

[Haggis]

What really frosts my pumpkin is the guy who begs the unit to nominate him for a Class B, uses the CO/OC, RSM/CSM as a reference, the unit concurs with his employment and he gets hired for, say, three years.  Agrees to parade and gets his Annex D signed off by all concerned.  He never parades (Sorry, unit, but I'm too busy on the Class B job).  Later, goes through the parent unit for a career course.  Gets loaded and then "no-shows" on the course.  Who gest stuck answering to that?  The parent unit.  The unit smooths things over with the EU and the school and then, when this guy is asked to help the unit out on a major event, he goes ninja.

The other side of this is the soldier on a long Class B who gets course loaded and promoted by the EU ahead of his unit peers (and before he's ready in the opinion of the parent unit - and his PERs) simply because the EU needs a (insert rank here) position filled and this soldier was availaible for the course.

Seen both scenarios.  Don't like either.

 

[Brasidas]

Seen both scenarios.  Don't like either.

Fair enough.

 

[Dissident]

Seen both scenarios.  Don't like either.

Neither do I.

Especially when the member is employed out of trade, gets loaded on the PLQ of their choice, and will get promoted once they come back to their out of unit desk job.

All the while I would not want them leading a tour of the building.

But is it me  and my Bacardi or are we getting off topic here

 

[George Wallace]

But is it me  and my Bacardi or are we getting off topic here

A little bit.  We have to remember that like all the soldiers in the Reserves, all Class B employment opportunities are "individual", so many have no resemblance to another.  We have worse case scenarios, and also best case scenarios.  All we can hope for is that the majority fall into the medium.

 

[dapaterson]

It's more common than many realize.

I sit across the cube farm wall from the guy who is working on the Class B rationalization for the Army Reserve.  You'd be surprised to see how many Class B's are paid for by the parent unit in RPSR and the funds are (either simultaneously or retroactively) recovered from the employing unit's fin code.  As I said, in these cases the member appears  to be on the Army Reserve payroll, regardless of who he actually works for.

As the one who, until 15 months ago, ran the numbers for the Army I have a very good idea of how it works.  The number paid by their units with the funds SA`d back from the employer was under 1%; background noise in the big picture.  There are many folks on the unit rolls but paid by another fin code; identifying where they work is a trivial exercise - I left a briefing package and reference material in case anyone was ever was hired behind me.

Overall, the Army is woefully ignorant about what its people are doing.  The information is there; it`s not a huge chore to refine it so it`s useful - but the senior leadership (starting in the incompetent G1 branch) don`t care to know or do their jobs.

 

[Haggis]

As the one who, until 15 months ago, ran the numbers for the Army I have a very good idea of how it works.  The number paid by their units with the funds SA`d back from the employer was under 1%; background noise in the big picture.  There are many folks on the unit rolls but paid by another fin code; identifying where they work is a trivial exercise - I left a briefing package and reference material in case anyone was ever was hired behind me.

As the one who fields many of the data related questions from my cube-neighbour, I would daresay that data quality has deteriorated in the last 15 months and no one saw your briefing package (least of all my cube-neighbour).  But I'll be sure to tell him where to start looking.

 

[dapaterson]

The old timers in DGLRes know how to reach me - though I'm on leave 'til the 30th.

 

[CountDC]

CF Military Personnel Instruction 20-04:

2.15 Voluntary Reserve Service while on Cl “B” or “C” Reserve Service
A member on Cl "B" or "C" Reserve Service may, with the mutual approval of all units involved voluntarily continue to serve with a unit, subject to the limitations at para 2.13(b). This service shall be performed in the same rank that the member is authorized to wear on the Cl "B" or "C" Reserve Service. Approval of this service depends on factors such as distance between the two units, time available, and other personal, CF and/or operational requirements. There is no obligation on the member to perform this type of duty. The following conditions apply:

a.it must be authorized in writing prior to commencement. Administrative details are detailed at ref A;
b.on any calendar day, reservists are only entitled to be placed on one Cl of Reserve Service, therefore the members shall only receive pay for either the Cl “B” or “C” Reserve Service rate of pay to which the member is entitled by CBIs;
c.allowances, when authorized, are still applicable; and
d.the member may be granted short leave IAW DAOD 5060-0, Leave by the employing unit to compensate for the service the member performed..

Annex D (which is not available. on the Internet) places the onus on the employing unit to justify why a member is refused the opportunity to parade.

http://hr3.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/dhrim/mhrrp/ch19/engraph/ANNE_e.dot  (DWAN link)

Don't know about Annex D but Annex E of APM 245 is:

Part 5 – Employment / Host Unit Commanding Officer’s Approval
With respect to the member’s voluntary service application above, (cross out non applicable information and substantiate lack of approval):
I approve / I do not approve the terms of service detailed in Part 2 above
Comments (if applicable):     

Reproduce this pro forma locally Date of Issue: 28 Feb 09

Big change from what it used to be.  Still the home unit can not order the member to parade with them, it is up to the member to decide if he wants to and request approval.  Even if the member requests approval he is not required to attend - it is voluntary. Sure the unit will be PO'd but it is up to the member.

Maybe someone here knows current policy - few years ago (ok maybe more than a few) a unit CO was informed that he could not refuse to submit a members name for a class b opp applyed for. If the member submitted his application the only thing the CO could do was forward it with his comments not recommending the member for the job.  It was explained that if the CO did not forward it the member could redress and if he won the funds to compensate him may come from the CO's budget.  I think I remember the details correctly but it was a "few" years ago.

 

[dapaterson]

CountDC:

Still pretty much the way you describe it.  I've seen one very unflattering cover letter from someone's commander - "Given the choice, I would not work with this individual again."  Generally, it's a terse "Unit concurs with nomination."

 

[Jarnhamar]

[Brihard you freedom hater clean out your inbox it's full]  ;D

 

[Haggis]

http://hr3.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/dhrim/mhrrp/ch19/engraph/ANNE_e.dot  (DWAN link)
Big change from what it used to be.  Still the home unit can not order the member to parade with them, it is up to the member to decide if he wants to and request approval.  Even if the member requests approval he is not required to attend - it is voluntary. Sure the unit will be PO'd but it is up to the member.

It's expected if such approval is granted that the member will parade at least as often as his average Class A counterpart, particularly if his EU is granting "CTO".

About three years ago, I was involved with three young Class B troops who had been granted this permission by the EU and were also granted (and took) regular "CTO" even though they rarely paraded with the parent unit.  One went as far as to "mom & pop" the EU and the parent unit to get himself on a PLQ.

Maybe someone here knows current policy - few years ago (ok maybe more than a few) a unit CO was informed that he could not refuse to submit a members name for a class b opp applyed for. If the member submitted his application the only thing the CO could do was forward it with his comments not recommending the member for the job.  It was explained that if the CO did not forward it the member could redress and if he won the funds to compensate him may come from the CO's budget.  I think I remember the details correctly but it was a "few" years ago.

I've been involved in a couple of redresses of this nature in the past year, from a policy interpretation perspective.  The parent unit CO is not obliged to reccommend any member for Class B employment and there are many many reasons why a CO would not do so (member is not a good "fit", is a disciplinary/admin burden, fails to meet prerequisiites, or the job may set the member up for failure, just to name a few). 

The ultimate decision to hire a member on Class B rests with the EU, but the EU cannot hire a member without CO/chain of command concurrence.

And a Merry Christmas to all.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I've been involved in a couple of redresses of this nature in the past year, from a policy interpretation perspective.  The parent unit CO is not obliged to reccommend any member for Class B employment and there are many many reasons why a CO would not do so (member is not a good "fit", is a disciplinary/admin burden, fails to meet prerequisiites, or the job may set the member up for failure, just to name a few). 

The ultimate decision to hire a member on Class B rests with the EU, but the EU cannot hire a member without CO/chain of command concurrence.

And a Merry Christmas to all.

What irks me is when a soldier puts on a big song and dance promising to attend training nights and weekend ex's and functions and ties to sell himself. Gets a class B then it's one excuse after another why they can't show up for a simple weekend supporting their regiment (Especially if they are or on the path to being  a leader).  Then when their class B is finished their back at the unit begging for more work with more empty promises.
If it was up to me I wouldn't send someone like this on another class B job unless there was absolutely no one else interested in the spot.

 

[Harris]

I've been involved in a couple of redresses of this nature in the past year, from a policy interpretation perspective.  The parent unit CO is not obliged to reccommend any member for Class B employment and there are many many reasons why a CO would not do so (member is not a good "fit", is a disciplinary/admin burden, fails to meet prerequisiites, or the job may set the member up for failure, just to name a few). 

The ultimate decision to hire a member on Class B rests with the EU, but the EU cannot hire a member without CO/chain of command concurrence.

Haggis, could you expand a bit here?  My impression (as told to me by my current CO) is that while not obligated to recommend someone, he must forward the application onwards.  You last line suggests that it is the CO, not the EU who has final decision on hiring as they need the CO's concurrence.  Is my view correct?  And if so do you have a reference I could use?

 

[brihard]

Flawed-

PM box emptied. Sorry about that. I was gone for a couple days hating freedom.  ;D