16% of Toronto homeless served in Canadian military

[armyca08]

Really?  Are you basing this on your non-existent field experience and non-existent TI, since you do not yet appear to have completed the recruitment process?
I'm afraid that your comments on physical worlds and psychosis are just so much gobbledegook - they may sound learned to you, but to me you're spouting drivel.  It does, however, increase your post count.

No, its my opinion, I am not citing authorities. I've ran into a number of people through my life who were interacting with the CF either as aspiring, current, or former members of both the reserve and regular forces. I base my opinions upon real world interactions, and my own experiences. If you disagree with something I've said I invite you to clarify what is an errored statement.

It sums up to, the more pain you experience the more normal it gets. Not exactly gobbledegook, the military hardens people, that is all there is to it.

I am not the least concerned about my post count. Although I understand I only have 9 more shots at this.. and I'm not even done my second application, whatever will I do if I am unable to post in recruiting or rather 159 more...

 

[Fishbone Jones]

No, its my opinion, I am not citing authorities. I've ran into a number of people through my life who were interacting with the CF either as aspiring, current, or former members of both the reserve and regular forces. I base my opinions upon real world interactions, and my own experiences. If you disagree with something I've said I invite you to clarify what is an errored statement.

It sums up to, the more pain you experience the more normal it gets. Not exactly gobbledegook, the military hardens people, that is all there is to it.

I am not the least concerned about my post count. Although I understand I only have 9 more shots at this.. and I'm not even done my second application, whatever will I do if I am unable to post in recruiting

For many, money and a place to stay has nothing to do with it.

Many out there just want to be left alone and prefer not to share the burdens of society (rent, income, jobs, etc).

In short, you really don't know what you're talking about.

However, we've come to expect that from some around here.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

whatever will I do if I am unable to post in recruiting or rather 159 more...

Save a lot of people a lot of wasted reading time?

 

[stealthylizard]

I was homeless last summer.  It had nothing to do with being in the military.  I had a job.  I had the money.  I just wasn't able to find a new place to live after moving.

 

[Journeyman]

It is fairly obvious the root cause of homelessness is not having a home, high property taxes, rental costs etc..

Perhaps they're simply setting themselves up for this line of work?  :nod:

 

[Van Gogh]

As others have said, even though 20% might have served in the CF's before (which I highly doubt), that says very little about why they are on the street.
We all make personal decisions in out life's (regardless of where we work) that could end up with us being on the street !!!

P.S. Of  course there are cases when it was not the homeless persons fault that he ended up on the street, just bad luck ....

 

[Danjanou]

No, its my opinion, I am not citing authorities. I've ran into a number of people through my life who were interacting with the CF either as aspiring, current, or former members of both the reserve and regular forces. I base my opinions upon real world interactions, and my own experiences. If you disagree with something I've said I invite you to clarify what is an errored statement.

It sums up to, the more pain you experience the more normal it gets. Not exactly gobbledegook, the military hardens people, that is all there is to it.

I am not the least concerned about my post count. Although I understand I only have 9 more shots at this.. and I'm not even done my second application, whatever will I do if I am unable to post in recruiting or rather 159 more...

And as the saying goes opinions are like a certain body part everyone has one.

Guess what butter cup there are people on this board and contributing to this thread who actually have real life experience in the subject at hand. That means they are real BTDT Vets who have as you put it lived with theiri house on their back and /or been shot at. There are also people on here that have real life experience in dealing with the homeless on a regular basis. There are even some who fall into both categories.

So sunshine rather than enlighten us with you theories on the subject, how about you STFU and listen/read a bit more and then begin to understand this issue , if that is your objective.

 

[john10]

And as the saying goes opinions are like a certain body part everyone has one.

Guess what butter cup there are people on this board and contributing to this thread who actually have real life experience in the subject at hand. That means they are real BTDT Vets who have as you put it lived with theiri house on their back and /or been shot at. There are also people on here that have real life experience in dealing with the homeless on a regular basis. There are even some who fall into both categories.

So sunshine rather than enlighten us with you theories on the subject, how about you STFU and listen/read a bit more and then begin to understand this issue , if that is your objective.

Is this what's considered civil discussion, leadership through example?

Telling a guy to shut the fukkk up just because his opinion is different from recce's?

 

[chrisf]

Out of curiosity... does anyone have stat on what percent of the Canadian population at large have served in the forces?

 

[mariomike]

Out of curiosity... does anyone have stat on what percent of the Canadian population at large have served in the forces?

Not a percentage, but this is the estimated number.

Estimated Veteran Population as of March 2013
http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/department/press/gnstat

 

[chrisf]

So about 1.9%, but that's veterans...

Of course, as we all know, once a member of the forces, always a former member of the forces... spend 3 days in basic training, voluntarily release, rob a bank 10 years later, and the media reports it as a "Former member of the Canadian forces"

Would be interesting to know if 16%, after subtracting the portion who may lie about former service, exceeds the percentage overall of the Canadian population who have, at some point, served with the Canadian forces....

 

[MilEME09]

Personally I'm more interested in what factors contributed to them being homeless, and if any of those factors were a break down in government programs and services

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Personally I'm more interested in what factors contributed to them being homeless, and if any of those factors were a break down in government programs and services

Most just like it that way............

 

[pbi]

Most just like it that way............

The problem may be, though, that some "just like it that way" because they are too mentally ill to make a better decision.  About two years ago I was involved in a case of an older vet "living rough" in pretty bad conditions in rural Ontario. Despite the efforts of a bunch of well-meaning organizations ranging from the OPP to VAC to the Legion, etc., he decided he didn't want help. His behaviour suggested very strongly that he was mentally disturbed, but because this couldn't be proven sufficiently, he was left to go on his way.

My guess would be that mental illness (aggravated by alcoholism or other addiction) is behind the problem for a good number of these "16 percenters".

Mario Mike: you probably dealt with a few of these folks in your career: what do you think?

 

[Danjanou]

The problem may be, though, that some "just like it that way" because they are too mentally ill to make a better decision.  About two years ago I was involved in a case of an older vet "living rough" in pretty bad conditions in rural Ontario. Despite the efforts of a bunch of well-meaning organizations ranging from the OPP to VAC to the Legion, etc., he decided he didn't want help. His behaviour suggested very strongly that he was mentally disturbed, but because this couldn't be proven sufficiently, he was left to go on his way.

My guess would be that mental illness (aggravated by alcoholism or other addiction) is behind the problem for a good number of these "16 percenters".

Mario Mike: you probably dealt with a few of these folks in your career: what do you think?

Got it in one. There are agencies/resources out there to help the homeless and/or those with concurrent disorders ( mental health and addictions issues), and we can debate how effective they are or are not but there is one factor to consider, none of them are effective if they people they are set up to assist don't for whatever reason access them.

Many suffering from mental health issues will not access help for one simple reason, they don't see himself as mentally ill. Try telling someone "hey bud you've gone a bit off in the head maybe we should go and see a Doctor." Not going to get the same result as " hey bud you're arm is broken lets take you into the Doctors office and get it taken care of. Toss in the social stigma attached with mental/emotional illness and the fact that the very nature of this type of illness and its effect on the normal rational thought process and you see the problem.

Now add in the addiction issue if one exists. Anyone have experience with convincing a friend  or family member that yes they do have a problem and getting them to admit it? Finally as we're for the most part still dealing with that older generation of vets here the "real men don't have issues and suck it up butter cup" mindset and well one gets the idea of how much an uphill battle this is , even without al the political baggage tossed in.

 

[mariomike]

Mario Mike: you probably dealt with a few of these folks in your career: what do you think?

I remember the shut-ins, the hoarders, people isolated with no social support, as well as the "NFA's" ( No Fixed Address ). As to what percentage had served in the military, it wasn't part of our assessment to ask.

As to why they lived that way, we left that to the social workers.

All we knew was that the challenges they presented were sometimes overwhelming.

Going into the camps in the ravines you always went in loud - because there was a concern they might have traps.

Many had dogs. We didn't like it, but sometimes we brought them along as well. We let them smoke too. We also brought their bags of stuff with them.

It was a waste of time arguing about the rules. Better to bend a little and hope for a fast and quiet trip than later have to explain to the Coroner why we cancelled ourselves off the call.

Some guys used to lecture them about taking the ambulance away from "someone who might really need us". 

You never knew how they were going to react. Many were docile. Others very agitated.

Even in such a big city, because there were so many "frequent flyers" you got to know some of them. One old guy used to tell us stories about sailing all over the world with the Merchant Marine. One night he was hit

and killed by a drunk driver. When we wheeled him in to the ER the nurses started to cry because they had become so fond of him. They usually said, "Why did you bring him to OUR emerg? Was XXX closed?!" 

Something the Department started a couple of years before I retired was sending Community Paramedics to check on individuals as an extension to our emergency service. 

Cheers   

 

[The Bread Guy]

From the "Be Careful What You Wish For" file ....

The Veterans Affairs Minister wants to know about homeless vets you might know about.  This, from the Parliamentary Secretary speaking in the House of Commons yesterday (highlights mine):

Mr. Speaker, last week, the Minister of Veterans Affairs met with individuals who are dedicated to helping homeless veterans get off the streets. We, like many veterans groups such as the Royal Canadian Legion, believe that veterans' homelessness should never happen in the first place. We must stand together to address these unfortunate circumstances.  I call on every member in the House and all Canadians to please contact the Minister of Veterans Affairs immediately if they know of or come across a homeless veteran in their community.

You can find contact information for Mr. Fantino's office here or here.

 

[Sheep Dog]

ALLCON, I am a volunteer with a non-profit on the streets of Toronto.  The numbers are legitimate, when a person declares military service, their service number is recorded and VAC confirms.  What is not reported, there is only one shelter doing this to date.  All others treat those who come through the door as either transient or homeless, there is no question of military service.

Here is a break out (based on one organization this past year):

• Their mission has identified eighty three (83) men who are Veterans of the Canadian Armed Forces.
• Of the eighty three, they have housed forty (40).
• They run an in-house Drug Alcohol Recovery Enrichment program.  They dedicate five (5) beds exclusively for Veterans.
• They run a specialized Veterans Life Skills Program.
• Average age is 41.

 

[McG]

So, the statistic of 16% is based on numbers collected at only one shelter which likely attracts a biased sample because it offers special services exclusively for veterans?

 

[mariomike]

From the Summary dated September 4, 2013.
http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2013/cd/bgrd/backgroundfile-61364.pdf
page 7

"Homelessness among Canadian Veterans is evident within Toronto:

Street Needs Assessment respondents were asked about military service for the first time in 2013. Seven percent of the overall homeless population indicated that they had some experience in the Canadian Forces. Although data behind this result is limited (respondents were not asked about length or type of service) it is nonetheless an important result of the SNA. There has been little to no research yet conducted to understand the prevalence of homelessness among Veterans in Canada. However, studies in the United States indicate that roughly 7 percent of the country's homeless population are Veterans *, while in the United Kingdom it is 6 percent."

"In addition, SSHA ( Shelter, Support and Housing Administration ) will: Update shelter intake materials in all SSHA programs to incorporate questions about clients' past service in the Canadian Armed Forces."

* "In U.S., 24% of Men, 2% of Women Are Veterans"
http://www.gallup.com/poll/158729/men-women-veterans.aspx