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2022 CPC Leadership Discussion: Et tu Redeux

I sure hope you're not equating the "leader problems" of JT and PP, as that would be a leap.

Here on one hand we have a leader absolutely rife with scandal after scandal and who now has been potentially implicated in allowing a hostile power to carry out clandestine election interference and other shit on a huge scale... and then on the other hand we have an opposition leader who is criticizing the sitting government of all said scandals, and the means to which he does it offends your sensibilities. Really?
That's not even the implication. First off, the interference was not on a "huge scale", and secondly, no one has implied he "allowed" it to happen. All of the evidence, so far, has been that poor intergovernmental information sharing processes lead to the reports not reaching the right people with the right level of priority (or at all), and therefore no action being taken. Show me the receipts.
 
That's not even the implication. First off, the interference was not on a "huge scale", and secondly, no one has implied he "allowed" it to happen. All of the evidence, so far, has been that poor intergovernmental information sharing processes lead to the reports not reaching the right people with the right level of priority (or at all), and therefore no action being taken. Show me the receipts.

Wrong answer Lumber. What you suggest is former GG Johnston's disgraceful report on the issue.
 
A little late, but it's been a long week:

PP PB Tweet Snip.JPG

Poilievre is once again rage baiting and using emotions and the ignorance of everyday people to win political points. PP has been demanding that Paul Bernardo remain in a maximum security prison, and demanding the gov directly interfere in the judicial process, and he put forward a motion to do so. The motion was obviously voted down. Why? Because it’s unconstitutional. The HoC does not individually determine punishments for criminals. That’s not how our justice system works, at all, and this is PP demanding to use the justice system to punish those he thinks deserves to be punished. That is a very scary prospect. He wants to use the HoC to manipulate the judicial system, and when it was voted down, do you know what the conservatives did? They started chanting “you guys love Paul Bernardo.” This is how low they’ve sunk. The HoC has become incredibly vile, and it’s largely being driven by the CPC, playing this sort of disgusting game. Politicians interfering with the criminal justice system directly, especially with individual cases, is unconstitutional. PP is demanding that federal government do something unconstitutional, and then getting mad at them for not doing.

What's really sad is that the CPC is the only real alternative to the LPC, but it's like the CPC doesn't want to be left alone; as the LPC sinks lower and lower, the CPC is diving right in after them.
 
Wrong answer Lumber. What you suggest is former GG Johnston's disgraceful report on the issue.
Oh I forgot you had access to all the same information as the Johnston's committee. You must have put in a LOT of work to be able to independently verify that the substance of his report was not just incorrect or inaccurate, but disgraceful. Please, can you share some of your specific conclusions and how you got to them?
 
A little late, but it's been a long week:

View attachment 78186

Poilievre is once again rage baiting and using emotions and the ignorance of everyday people to win political points. PP has been demanding that Paul Bernardo remain in a maximum security prison, and demanding the gov directly interfere in the judicial process, and he put forward a motion to do so. The motion was obviously voted down. Why? Because it’s unconstitutional. The HoC does not individually determine punishments for criminals. That’s not how our justice system works, at all, and this is PP demanding to use the justice system to punish those he thinks deserves to be punished. That is a very scary prospect. He wants to use the HoC to manipulate the judicial system, and when it was voted down, do you know what the conservatives did? They started chanting “you guys love Paul Bernardo.” This is how low they’ve sunk. The HoC has become incredibly vile, and it’s largely being driven by the CPC, playing this sort of disgusting game. Politicians interfering with the criminal justice system directly, especially with individual cases, is unconstitutional. PP is demanding that federal government do something unconstitutional, and then getting mad at them for not doing.

What's really sad is that the CPC is the only real alternative to the LPC, but it's like the CPC doesn't want to be left alone; as the LPC sinks lower and lower, the CPC is diving right in after them.
Somebody forgot this little obscure factoid of our governmental system :sneaky:

 
A little late, but it's been a long week:

View attachment 78186

Poilievre is once again rage baiting and using emotions and the ignorance of everyday people to win political points. PP has been demanding that Paul Bernardo remain in a maximum security prison, and demanding the gov directly interfere in the judicial process, and he put forward a motion to do so. The motion was obviously voted down. Why? Because it’s unconstitutional. The HoC does not individually determine punishments for criminals. That’s not how our justice system works, at all, and this is PP demanding to use the justice system to punish those he thinks deserves to be punished. That is a very scary prospect. He wants to use the HoC to manipulate the judicial system, and when it was voted down, do you know what the conservatives did? They started chanting “you guys love Paul Bernardo.” This is how low they’ve sunk. The HoC has become incredibly vile, and it’s largely being driven by the CPC, playing this sort of disgusting game. Politicians interfering with the criminal justice system directly, especially with individual cases, is unconstitutional. PP is demanding that federal government do something unconstitutional, and then getting mad at them for not doing.

What's really sad is that the CPC is the only real alternative to the LPC, but it's like the CPC doesn't want to be left alone; as the LPC sinks lower and lower, the CPC is diving right in after them.

I said earlier I’d come back with my thoughts on this. I’ll preface this with fuck Paul Bernardo and it’s a shame he’s not dead, just so nobody thinks any of what I say comes from any sympathy for him.

Our federal criminal laws (Criminal Code, and some other statutes) establish criminal offences, and prescribe the possible sentences for them. The Crim Code will say, for instance, how much time someone might serve in prison. That’s established by Parliament. Parliament has also legislated what are the factors for judges to consider in sentencing. The criminal law explicitly leaves it to judges to actually issue a sentence.

Federal corrections has varying levels of security and programming in order to keep prisoners secure and in custody, and to fulfil its its rehabilitative mandate under the Corrections and Conditional Releases Act. The security level, more than anything, is about safeguarding the prisoner from escape and, to some extent, from them causing harm to other inmates. The level of security is not part of the punitive sentence; it’s essentially an administrative decision. Yes, being incarcerated in maximum security sucks more than medium security, which sucks more than minimum security. But that’s not intended in any part of the system to explicitly be part of the punitive sentence.

It’s very emotional for people to consider someone like Bernardo being dropped a security level, but he’ll still be securely behind bars. It’s an operational and administrative decision under Correctional Service Canada’s purview as it is for any other prisoner.

Unfortunately, the emotional and sensational nature of this makes it fodder for some frankly pathetic and opportunistic political showboating. What that really tangibly means is that we have the opposition wanting a cabinet minister to specifically interfere to turn the dial up on the punishment of a convicted offender, in a way not provided for in our laws, and not intended or legislated by parliament. That’s a pretty significant separation of powers issue, and a lot of people are ok with it because it’s that piece of shit Bernardo. But, no matter who it is, this is not a decision that would be appropriate for a political figure to meddle in. We explicitly have a whole separate part of our system to deal with crime and punishment. That’s hived off from the executive branch on purpose, because we specifically don’t want the government of the day prescribing punishments. If they want that, they need to lead legislative efforts on it.

So that’s my take. It wasn’t ok when the government of the day interfered in the internal decisions of the justice system in the past, and it wouldn’t be ok for them to do so now or in future. The imperfections in the system - and there are many - should be remedied by thoughtful policy making and legislation, not as hoc meddling when something is sensational enough to make the news and score points on electoral intention polls.
 
A little late, but it's been a long week:

View attachment 78186

Poilievre is once again rage baiting and using emotions and the ignorance of everyday people to win political points. PP has been demanding that Paul Bernardo remain in a maximum security prison, and demanding the gov directly interfere in the judicial process, and he put forward a motion to do so. The motion was obviously voted down. Why? Because it’s unconstitutional. The HoC does not individually determine punishments for criminals. That’s not how our justice system works, at all, and this is PP demanding to use the justice system to punish those he thinks deserves to be punished.
SNC Lavalin (surreptitiously) enters the chat.
 
SNC Lavalin (surreptitiously) enters the chat.
Ah yes! Whataboutism. Please continue to ignore the central issue and countinue to chant "yea, but, them?!".

I forgot every thread on this site is the stated topic PLUS an anti-Trudeau/Liberal sump.
 
Ah yes! Whataboutism. Please continue to ignore the central issue and countinue to chant "yea, but, them?!".

I forgot every thread on this site is the stated topic PLUS an anti-Trudeau/Liberal sump.
I am simply countering your counter.
 
I said earlier I’d come back with my thoughts on this. I’ll preface this with fuck Paul Bernardo and it’s a shame he’s not dead, just so nobody thinks any of what I say comes from any sympathy for him.

Our federal criminal laws (Criminal Code, and some other statutes) establish criminal offences, and prescribe the possible sentences for them. The Crim Code will say, for instance, how much time someone might serve in prison. That’s established by Parliament. Parliament has also legislated what are the factors for judges to consider in sentencing. The criminal law explicitly leaves it to judges to actually issue a sentence.

Federal corrections has varying levels of security and programming in order to keep prisoners secure and in custody, and to fulfil its its rehabilitative mandate under the Corrections and Conditional Releases Act. The security level, more than anything, is about safeguarding the prisoner from escape and, to some extent, from them causing harm to other inmates. The level of security is not part of the punitive sentence; it’s essentially an administrative decision. Yes, being incarcerated in maximum security sucks more than medium security, which sucks more than minimum security. But that’s not intended in any part of the system to explicitly be part of the punitive sentence.

It’s very emotional for people to consider someone like Bernardo being dropped a security level, but he’ll still be securely behind bars. It’s an operational and administrative decision under Correctional Service Canada’s purview as it is for any other prisoner.

Unfortunately, the emotional and sensational nature of this makes it fodder for some frankly pathetic and opportunistic political showboating. What that really tangibly means is that we have the opposition wanting a cabinet minister to specifically interfere to turn the dial up on the punishment of a convicted offender, in a way not provided for in our laws, and not intended or legislated by parliament. That’s a pretty significant separation of powers issue, and a lot of people are ok with it because it’s that piece of shit Bernardo. But, no matter who it is, this is not a decision that would be appropriate for a political figure to meddle in. We explicitly have a whole separate part of our system to deal with crime and punishment. That’s hived off from the executive branch on purpose, because we specifically don’t want the government of the day prescribing punishments. If they want that, they need to lead legislative efforts on it.

So that’s my take. It wasn’t ok when the government of the day interfered in the internal decisions of the justice system in the past, and it wouldn’t be ok for them to do so now or in future. The imperfections in the system - and there are many - should be remedied by thoughtful policy making and legislation, not as hoc meddling when something is sensational enough to make the news and score points on electoral intention polls.
Well done - as usual.

The claim is CSC notified the Minister's office, exactly when seems to be a matter of debate. The problem with the system in place, if it is anything like the provincial Ontario system as I experienced it, is bureaucrats are expected to notify their ministry/department on any matter that is potentially contentious. The definition of that is a moving target, as is what 'the centre' does with the information, giving everyone plausible deniability. One would wonder why CSC would tell the minister's office of any inmate transfer.

The only part that kinda surprised me is there is no guidelines for the handling of an inmate under an indeterminate sentence (dangerous offender) under the category of 'specific deterrence', if for no other reason than their own protection.
 
A little late, but it's been a long week:

View attachment 78186

Poilievre is once again rage baiting and using emotions and the ignorance of everyday people to win political points.
When he does this he actually reminds me of Bill Blair when he was Public Safety Minister. Blair was a master of rage baiting, especially around the gun file.

This also reminds me of why PP is not a good primie ministerial candidate in my mind. He shoots from the lip and oftentimes doesn't have his ducks in a row and is easily out manoeuvred by the well briefed Liberals who are never going to directly answer a question.
 
I wonder when the next Federal election will be?
Will the LPC and NDP "coalition" continue?
Are there any confidence votes coming up?

I don't think that Mr. Jagmeet Singh will end the partnership with the LPC anytime soon. There will be disagreements, i.e. the David Johnston report on allegations of Chinese electoral interference, but the tangible access to political power will be a powerful incentive to keep this partnership deal alive. Unfortunately, IMO, this will lead to more grandiose social projects which will infringe on the individual's rights and personal responsibility. I wish that they stop moving to the political left and go back to the centre.

I agree with Lumber's assessment of Mr. Poilievre's performance so far. I cannot imagine PP, as the PM, having to diplomatically deal with foreign leaders and their staffs. He could embarrass the country as much PM Trudeau does when he is on the foreign stage.

When will the LPC, CPC and NDP elect qualified, educated (formal and informal), intellectually capable, articulate and personable leaders? When will the average Cdn voter vote for the party with a sensible platform vice a party with a charismatic, unqualified, intellectually ill-equipped leader?
 

Latest polling aggregate. Looks like they are pretty much where they (LOC and CPC) were in Jan. Seat projections are statistically tied now. As always the trend lines for both the popular vote and the projected seat win is interesting.
 
I sure hope you're not equating the "leader problems" of JT and PP, as that would be a leap.

Here on one hand we have a leader absolutely rife with scandal after scandal and who now has been potentially implicated in allowing a hostile power to carry out clandestine election interference and other shit on a huge scale... and then on the other hand we have an opposition leader who is criticizing the sitting government of all said scandals, and the means to which he does it offends your sensibilities. Really?
Well said.
 
When he does this he actually reminds me of Bill Blair when he was Public Safety Minister. Blair was a master of rage baiting, especially around the gun file.

This also reminds me of why PP is not a good primie ministerial candidate in my mind. He shoots from the lip and oftentimes doesn't have his ducks in a row and is easily out manoeuvred by the well briefed Liberals who are never going to directly answer a question.
When does he not have his ducks in a row? He usually comes out firing facts and numbers that are well researched. Lets hear specifics?

I want the PP that gets Canada FIRED up about political incompetence. Canada needs to be. Enough is enough. They either get fire up at polls and the election booth, or they get fired up and take it out on the streets. And make the trucker convoy protest look like a kindergarten playtime.

I am watching Canadians lives get fucking ruined by the shear incompetency of Trudeau's policies, yes his policies. Another carbon tax is not the freaking answer.
 
Ah yes! Whataboutism. Please continue to ignore the central issue and countinue to chant "yea, but, them?!".

I forgot every thread on this site is the stated topic PLUS an anti-Trudeau/Liberal sump.
Let's not forget the vilification of 2.3 million Canadians by the PM in the house, how we are a "Threat" that demands imediate action.
 
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