2022 CPC Leadership Discussion: Et tu Redeux

[ArmyRick]

At this point I'm still a Ruffian.

Ruffian? Like many here, you want vote for the Conservatives until Jesus himself is their leader? Like what do you need?

I love how everyone who says PP is "just not the leader" or attacks his "rage politics" (like Trudeau doesn't engage in that?) none of you can truly tear apart his policies or ideas.

 

[IKnowNothing]

Ruffian? Like many here, you want vote for the Conservatives until Jesus himself is their leader? Like what do you need?

I love how everyone who says PP is "just not the leader" or attacks his "rage politics" (like Trudeau doesn't engage in that?) none of you can truly tear apart his policies or ideas.

Last I checked Alex Ruff is a sitting CPC MP.

I (and others) have done just that multiple times. It gets brushed off.

Edit- receipts here and here

Don't have a post on it, but the "fire the gatekeepers" approach to housing supply comes with the stench of ill-considered policy like Ontario bill 97, coupled with a healthy dash of reduced building standards.

 

[Remius]

Ruffian? Like many here, you want vote for the Conservatives until Jesus himself is their leader? Like what do you need?

I love how everyone who says PP is "just not the leader" or attacks his "rage politics" (like Trudeau doesn't engage in that?) none of you can truly tear apart his policies or ideas.

There really hasn’t been much in terms of policy to be honest. Statements and political stunts mostly. A few fringe ideas that I am not sure hold up to too much scrutiny. That being said he has stated a few good ideas but details on the « how » are a bit scarce for now.

The CPC policy convention is set for Sept 2023. We will likely see a more fleshed out party policy paper and will more than likely be the blue print for election campaigning (keep in mind that policy motions are not always binding or enacted).

 

[Lumber]

@Lumber Trudeau policies that cause Canadians to suffer? Your joking right?
-Unnecessary, unwanted and ineffective carbon tax
-Ditto on the second carbon tax
-Balance the budget in 2019, no 2023, n0 2025, no 2032, no budgets balance themselves
-CAF showing up ALOT in the news (soldiers buying their own PPE and FOOD?)
-Wasting money on electric car battery plants (like HOW much do they spend so that can employ a few people?)
-Allowing China to do whatever the F they want
-Free narcotics for addicts surely helps (safe supply), my dead cousin who died of an OD several years ago in Vancouver surely benefitted from safe supply
-Bail for everyone (Jail not bailis PP policy). How many are getting hurt, killed, beaten or harmed by a person on bail?

Need I go on? WAKE UP!

You just listed a bunch of Trudeau policies you disagree with.

You claimed to know Canadians who's lives are being "ruined" by the policies and I was looking for a more specific example, such as "I have friend x, Trudeau's policy resulted in y, which has ruined their lives." I mens, the only one there I can see that comes close is the mention of the carbon tax, and do you know people who's actual entire lives have been ruined by the carbon tax specifically?

 

[Blackadder1916]

I was mildly surprised (well, not actually) that no mention had been made in this thread of the recent, final speech in the House by the a former leader of the CPC, Erin O'Toole, especially since there has been much some editorial comment about it (such as here and here . . . ). I will admit I didn't watch the speech, either as originally presented or repeated as part of media discussion. That is until today. I was aware of his remarks about the divisiveness of politics and that he apparently included himself, his party and (though not by name, just suggestion) the current leader of his party as part of the problem, but it wasn't until this morning after listening to The Current on CBC radio when Mr. O'Toole was interviewed by the host, Matt Galloway, that I was interested enough to find what he actually said, in full, in the House.

I'll also admit that I didn't like O'Toole as a politician, but I will give credit where credit is due. And though he didn't completely forget his place on the opposition benches (had to get a few jabs in), he does deserve credit for his comments; though, I do feel it would have been more courageous to do so sooner than his last day in the House.

What did he say? For the aliterite, there is always Youtube.

And for those, like me, who need to parse his words, there is Hansard. The final few paragraphs of his address contain the meat (as well as some of the partisan jabs). I

https://www.ourcommons.ca/DocumentViewer/en/44-1/house/sitting-211/hansard#Int-12283684

There are many challenges facing Canada at this time, but there are also incredible opportunities waiting to be seized. However, that is not happening today. Instead of leading, instead of debating our national purpose in this chamber, too many of us are often chasing algorithms down a sinkhole of diversion and division. We are becoming elected officials who judge our self-worth by how many likes we get on social media, but not how many lives we change in the real world. Performance politics is fuelling polarization, virtue signalling is replacing discussion, and far too often we are just using this chamber to generate clips, not to start national debates.

Social media did not build this great country, but it is starting to tear its democracy down. If we are not careful, there will soon be a generation of young voters who have never even heard a point of view different from their own. I fear that ignorance of the views of others will slowly transform into a dislike of others, and we can see that starting to happen.

Canada is a frontier country. We were built on the strength of the fur trade, a country where going hunting with our grandfather or an elder is as quintessentially Canadian as the backyard hockey rink, but today hunters are often demonized as a threat to society by politicians who know that this is not true. Whole rural swaths of our country are being held up as the problem, just to secure a few political points in the suburbs.

We are a country that sent our citizens far from our shores several times to fight for liberty alongside other countries in multilateral efforts. Canadian diplomats, including a future prime minister, helped draft the agreements built on that sacrifice to give us decades of peace and security, creating NATO, the United Nations and the Commonwealth, but today, too often, we are allowing conspiracy theories about the UN or the World Economic Forum to go unchallenged, or we attribute sinister motives to these organizations or people in a way that is simply not true or not fair. If we do this more, we are allowing others to define the debate for us and we risk allowing others to set the course for this country, because too many members on all sides of this chamber—and from time to time I have been guilty of it myself—are becoming followers of our followers when we should be leaders.

One member from the other side of the House told me that they no longer speak to their brother because of the divisive nature of the vaccine debates in the last election. Canadian families are, in some cases, finding it difficult to talk to each other about important issues. If we ever want to change this and begin to have respectful and serious discussions again, that change needs to start right here in Canada's House of Commons.

Why should the political future of any single member of the chamber or the electoral success of any one party stand in the way of our unity and of the prosperity we want to give to our children? Preserving these things and rising to meet the unique challenges facing Canada and the world today needs to be our national purpose.

As members of Parliament, we must always put the country first. We must lead and not just follow. We must strive to inspire and be careful not to incite. We must debate with insightful reason and not just tweet out of frustration. If we do not, decades in the future, Canadians will point to the current Parliament as the time when our national decline first began. However, I say to my colleagues that I do not think that will happen. I am an optimist, and I hope all members reflect on some of these things over the summer, because I believe that Canada’s best days are actually ahead of us. I believe in this great country and its people, and I believe in each of my friends. It has been an honour to serve with them.

And his comments on The Current this morning were also telling, though I did get the feeling he was being more circumspect. You can listen to them here,. For those who object to the CBC on principle, what have you to lose; you might as well take advantage of what your tax dollars have already paid for.

https://www.cbc.ca/listen/live-radio/1-63-the-current/clip/15992235-erin-otoole-solving-canadas-malaise?fbclid=IwAR3yVNiK5d-b-UqBZcpYzPvE_NJvRfRLGXl0yeMsKIJ1xOop8XyO1LUHmzo

 

[Halifax Tar]

That's not the job of the loyal opposition.

So what is it you want from him then ?

Or is it that you just don't like him ?

That's cool FYI, there are people I just don't like too; and I can't nail down why exactly.

 

[Remius]

I was mildly surprised (well, not actually) that no mention had been made in this thread of the recent, final speech in the House by the a former leader of the CPC, Erin O'Toole, especially since there has been much some editorial comment about it (such as here and here . . . ). I will admit I didn't watch the speech, either as originally presented or repeated as part of media discussion. That is until today. I was aware of his remarks about the divisiveness of politics and that he apparently included himself, his party and (though not by name, just suggestion) the current leader of his party as part of the problem, but it wasn't until this morning after listening to The Current on CBC radio when Mr. O'Toole was interviewed by the host, Matt Galloway, that I was interested enough to find what he actually said, in full, in the House.

I'll also admit that I didn't like O'Toole as a politician, but I will give credit where credit is due. And though he didn't completely forget his place on the opposition benches (had to get a few jabs in), he does deserve credit for his comments; though, I do feel it would have been more courageous to do so sooner than his last day in the House.

What did he say? For the aliterite, there is always Youtube.

And for those, like me, who need to parse his words, there is Hansard. The final few paragraphs of his address contain the meat (as well as some of the partisan jabs). I

https://www.ourcommons.ca/DocumentViewer/en/44-1/house/sitting-211/hansard#Int-12283684

And his comments on The Current this morning were also telling, though I did get the feeling he was being more circumspect. You can listen to them here,. For those who object to the CBC on principle, what have you to lose; you might as well take advantage of what your tax dollars have already paid for.

https://www.cbc.ca/listen/live-radio/1-63-the-current/clip/15992235-erin-otoole-solving-canadas-malaise?fbclid=IwAR3yVNiK5d-b-UqBZcpYzPvE_NJvRfRLGXl0yeMsKIJ1xOop8XyO1LUHmzo

I had posted his message and a story about it earlier but it didn’t really garner much attention here. He is a moderate Conservative. They are becoming less welcome in today’s CPC. His message was on point.

 

[QV]

Question. Do you consider Alberta's Premier Smith a moderate?

 

[suffolkowner]

So what is it you want from him then ?

Or is it that you just don't like him ?

That's cool FYI, there are people I just don't like too; and I can't nail down why exactly.

honestly Im not super into PP and Im not sure why exactly I much preferred O'Toole. As it stands now I am probably voting Conservative in the next federal election unless they really implode and then I dont know what to do as I have exhausted the alternatives

 

[Quirky]

instead makes up problems, blames the Liberals and/or Trudeau for literally everything,

You're right, the government that's been in power for 8 years can't possibly be held responsible. JFC.

Canadians aren’t fired up, they’re turned off.

Canadians deserve the government they get.

 

[Good2Golf]

Well since you do admit we have all these problems, and that only one leader for 8 years has had the house to solve these problems, one must wonder exactly how little you expect from our PM?

JT won’t be held to account until he has as many years ruling Canada as Trudeau Sr.

@Lumber Trudeau policies that cause Canadians to suffer? Your joking right?
-Unnecessary, unwanted and ineffective carbon tax
-Ditto on the second carbon tax
-Balance the budget in 2019, no 2023, n0 2025, no 2032, no budgets balance themselves
-CAF showing up ALOT in the news (soldiers buying their own PPE and FOOD?)
-Wasting money on electric car battery plants (like HOW much do they spend so that can employ a few people?)
-Allowing China to do whatever the F they want
-Free narcotics for addicts surely helps (safe supply), my dead cousin who died of an OD several years ago in Vancouver surely benefitted from safe supply
-Bail for everyone (Jail not bailis PP policy). How many are getting hurt, killed, beaten or harmed by a person on bail?

Need I go on? WAKE UP!

Rick, don’t forget Emergencies Act. (aka The Jim Watson & Coy Can’t Get Their Stuff Together and JT Didn’t Mind The Demonization Opportunity Act)

 

[Lumber]

You're right, the government that's been in power for 8 years can't possibly be held responsible. JFC.

They absolutely can be held responsible, and should... For the things they actually have control over or are themselves the cause of.

Saying that a fight on a bus in Toronto is directly Trudeau's fault is either lazy, inept, disingenuous, or all three.

 

[Quirky]

Cutting the Carbon Tax Scam is step 1 towards fixing affordability, immediately, for every Canadian. You need to be completely brain dead, or an environmental climate extremist, to think paying more at the pump will reduce forest fire activity in Canada.

Saying that a fight on a bus in Toronto is directly Trudeau's fault is either lazy, inept, disingenuous, or all three.

A fight? No. Repeat criminals getting out on bail and reoffending the same day? Yup, completely the fault of government and by proxy, Trudeau. It's no secret the Liberal NDP gov is soft and woke on crime.

 

[suffolkowner]

Question. Do you consider Alberta's Premier Smith a moderate?

I personally think shes a wingnut. For a while there you couldnt go a week without some timbit of crazy so much so that the NDP started to close the gap polling wise in Alberta. I do not consider PP to even be in the same galaxy as her. I could not imagine the circumstances that would cause me to vote for a CPC lead by her

 

[ArmyRick]

Cutting the Carbon Tax Scam is step 1 towards fixing affordability, immediately, for every Canadian. You need to be completely brain dead, or an environmental climate extremist, to think paying more at the pump will reduce forest fire activity in Canada.



A fight? No. Repeat criminals getting out on bail and reoffending the same day? Yup, completely the fault of government and by proxy, Trudeau. It's no secret the Liberal NDP gov is soft and woke on crime.

Nailed it. @Lumber plays his word games, I put up a very short list of how Trudeau policies DIRECTLY affect peoples lives and he puts the blinders even tighter and pretends he can't figure it out.

Or maybe he forgot that many people work outside government and don't have the luxury of a guaranteed paycheck.

 

[ArmyRick]

You just listed a bunch of Trudeau policies you disagree with.

You claimed to know Canadians who's lives are being "ruined" by the policies and I was looking for a more specific example, such as "I have friend x, Trudeau's policy resulted in y, which has ruined their lives." I mens, the only one there I can see that comes close is the mention of the carbon tax, and do you know people who's actual entire lives have been ruined by the carbon tax specifically?

I have lost a damn good customer who lost his job as a result of his company closing (covid lock downs) and housing prices driving things so high, he left the province to live in a smaller house elsewhere

Some good friends of mine were farmers and got sick of the "price on pollution" as something that literally crushed their business along with lockdowns during covid kept him from market access to sell directly to customers, he gave up sold his herd, sold his farm and emigrated to Belize.

I had another good customer and friend of mine who could not take the jab (as advised by her doctor for her own health) and the draconian jab policies (Trudeau was quite VOCAL about what he thought of non-vaccinated Canadians) and she is a visible minority and immigrant, she has left Canada for good.

I personally lost a shit ton of customers who simply can't afford to pay for meat period and/or they can't afford to drive up to pick up meat. I have to book my animals at the Abattoir a year out. A ruined economy drains my customers ability to pay for things.

Do you want more stories or am I wasting my fucking time spelling out the real world for you?

 

[Lumber]

Do you want more stories or am I wasting my fucking time spelling out the real world for you?

No no no! Please keep going; you're soooo close!

I have lost a damn good customer who lost his job as a result of his company closing (covid lock downs) and housing prices driving things so high, he left the province to live in a smaller house elsewhere

That doesn't really sound like his life being ruined, but I'll take your word for it. COVID lock downs were necessary to protect the people of this country. Were the rules that were in place absolutely required? hindsight and follow-on evidence would say, maybe not, but based on the data available at the time, the governments of the world made smart, sensible decisions. So, it's unfortunate that your customer's company closed down, but it was a worldwide pandemic. We can only expect so much. As for the housing prices, those have absolutely nothing to do with any liberal policy, so, try again.

Some good friends of mine were farmers and got sick of the "price on pollution" as something that literally crushed their business along with lockdowns during covid kept him from market access to sell directly to customers, he gave up sold his herd, sold his farm and emigrated to Belize.

Again, see my comment about COVID lockdown. It was unfortunate, but necessary.

I had another good customer and friend of mine who could not take the jab (as advised by her doctor for her own health) and the draconian jab policies (Trudeau was quite VOCAL about what he thought of non-vaccinated Canadians) and she is a visible minority and immigrant, she has left Canada for good.

There's some data missing here. Your friend couldn't get the jab, and subsequently left Canada, but you never mentioned how not being able to get the jab led to heir life being ruined. Also, Trudeau's comments/opinion about people don't really have an impact on whether or not his policies had a particular effect or not (that being said, I in no way support any of his defamatory comments about those who refused the jab, or participated in the convoy protest).

I personally lost a shit ton of customers who simply can't afford to pay for meat period and/or they can't afford to drive up to pick up meat. I have to book my animals at the Abattoir a year out. A ruined economy drains my customers ability to pay for things.

Again, you never specifically said which Trudeau policy lead to your customers being unable to afford to pay for meat. If you were going to say it was inflation, I will say that the vast vast vast majority of the cause of inflation is due to global issues, and nothing to due with any Trudeau policy. If you were going to say the carbon tax, then I call BS as the effect of carbon tax (so far) has been so miniscule that I do not buy for second that the carbon tax ALONE could cause someone's life to be ruined (ok, I won't say NEVER, but there would have had to have been some very specific circumstances where someone's entirely livelihood was 1. extremely dependent on the price of gas, and 2. already walking a fine line between stable and failure, such that even a small increase in gas costs sent them over the edge).

 

[Lumber]

Nailed it. @Lumber plays his word games, I put up a very short list of how Trudeau policies DIRECTLY affect peoples lives and he puts the blinders even tighter and pretends he can't figure it out.

I didn't deny that those policies directly effect peoples lives. Do you actually read what I write, or do you just get the red haze of rage across your vision when someone has the audacity to question the accuracy of your statements? Sorry, this isn't the echo chamber you wish it would be. I'll repeat:

You said people lives have been RUINED (your words), and I asked for specific cases and a description of how the Trudeau policy led to ruin, and you response was just a bunch of policies you don't like.

Or maybe he forgot that many people work outside government and don't have the luxury of a guaranteed paycheck.

Ooof, get very close to an ad hominem attack there Rick. Also, I don't collect a government paycheck, nor a government pension.

 

[RangerRay]

When it comes to politics in this country, I believe the 338 polls like I believe the CBC. But if they prove to be accurate and the Trudeau circle retains power this country gets everything it deserves. Including more division from an increasingly united West. The RoC should consider that.

So instead of bitching about the idiosyncrasies of the best chance to defeat JT, focus on what is important. Before anyone cries that PP isn't the best chance and Ambrose or O'Toole or whomever is... the expression crying over spilt milk comes to mind. PP is presently the best opportunity to defeat the corrupt LPC. Get behind that or lament something that isn't so and be happy with JT.

Look, I am so sick of Trudeau that I am probably going to reluctantly vote CPC, but that’s despite the rage farming, hyperbole and embrace of wacky conspiracy theories. You don’t have to convince me or Uncle Fred in Fort Bumfuck Saskatchewan. But you do have convince Harjit in Brampton and Ping in Richmond, who voted for Trudeau 3 times in a row to take a flyer on Pollievre. When the CPC and Liberals are tied (according to polling) in Tory blue Oxford, when the
Liberals are swimming in incompetence and scandal, then that’s on Pollievre. Not “the sheeple” or the “Liberal MSM” who have been breaking all these scandalous stories.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

So we've settled it then, a Countries economic problem are on the Opposition leader and not the PM.....