2022 CPC Leadership Discussion: Et tu Redeux

[KevinB]

We agree on so many things but not this one.

You are absolutely correct here

The problem is in the terminology. It's not anti or pro abortion - its anti or pro choice. Being against terminating a pregnancy is not a problem. Don't want one - don't have one. The problem isn't expressing that opinion either, although some do get very strident and in your face about it.

The problem comes when the anti-choice faction is bent on denying choice to everyone regardless of their beliefs which is what is happening in Republican controlled State governments. Once you impose your beliefs on others who do not share them, especially since this universally effects women, then it is misogynistic.

I disagree on your terminology, the same way you disagree mine, because mine working is descriptive and points to the death of the unborn baby as the result - than than Pro-Choice making it to be a simply Woman's issue, that men shook stay clear of, less they be misogynistic.
But if I accept your language, and the argument above, based on that, people who are pro choice, are thus paedophobic?

And while true that being anti-choice doesn't automatically make one anti-anything else, its not unusual that the trait is shared by many who are also against gay marriage or gays in general. I've always found it ironic that many who espouse freedom as their God-given right, would deny it to so many others.

The flip side of the coin, are those who are generally against the Death Penalty are often Pro Abortion.

This is why I am so questioning my allegiance to the CPC. I was on my local riding executive until right into the election when I was gob smacked by the extent it, including O'Toole, was kowtowing to its SOCON wing. My own MP is part of that group although she tries to adopt a veneer of tolerance. I quit the executive, I'm seriously thinking of quitting the party although I expect I'll be lost in the wilderness because I'm not an LPC fan. I can live with most of their social policies but I despise the "born to rule" mentality of the mob that controls the party.



Turfing O'Toole doesn't lead to Justin Trudeau hate. Justin was hated universally well before O'Toole was ever elected as leader. I come by my dislike of Justin quite naturally. I disliked his father back in the day and with him at least you could say that he was intelligent and not just a pretty face in pretty socks. The problem isn't so much Justin and his hypocrisy as the machine that runs him.

 

[Altair]

Trump won based on Hillary hate then Biden won on Trump hate, at a certain point it is effective.

The US is a two party system, you can say JT sucks all you want here, people will nod and vote NDP or Greens.

Its not that effective, because it wont drive votes to the CPC and without that the CPC wont win.

You actually could make a pretty compelling party based on JT Sucks,

Again, NDP and greens are there if Trudeau sucks, unless you broaden that message to say every leader on the left sucks it doesn't do much.

you just need to air it all out, and have a solution,

Yes, real solutions other than JT sucks would be nice.

because clearly Canada isn't done with this Castro Trudeau yet, so hate and hate alone won't get the job done.

Being the party of angry people screaming at clouds is the best way to relegate ones self to being a regional protest party.

Ethics doesn't seem to be a major issue for Canadian Voters though -- unless it's the CAF.

Ethics probably take a back seat to the economy, social benefits, housing, childcare, abortion,the environment, gun control, rights for minority groups.

Like, sure, you can say Justin Trudeau has issues with ethics, but is that enough to vote for the party that has a good chunk of its causus wanting to vote to keep conversion therapy legal? Or legalize more guns? To not bring in affordable childcare? To the average urban Canadian voter, they will put up with whatever ethical scandals the LPC finds itself in because the alternative is still worse.

 

[Altair]

Turfing O'Toole doesn't lead to Justin Trudeau hate. Justin was hated universally well before O'Toole was ever elected as leader. I come by my dislike of Justin quite naturally. I disliked his father back in the day and with him at least you could say that he was intelligent and not just a pretty face in pretty socks. The problem isn't so much Justin and his hypocrisy as the machine that runs him.

I mean in this thread. Justin Trudeau didn't lead to O'Toole getting turfed, he has nothing to do with who replaces O'Toole, and generally has nothing to do with this at all, but for some reason his name is dragged into this as a natural reflex.

 

[KevinB]

Ethics probably take a back seat to the economy, social benefits, housing, childcare, abortion,the environment, gun control, rights for minority groups.

Like, sure, you can say Justin Trudeau has issues with ethics, but is that enough to vote for the party that has a good chunk of its causus wanting to vote to keep conversion therapy legal? Or legalize more guns? To not bring in affordable childcare? To the average urban Canadian voter, they will put up with whatever ethical scandals the LPC finds itself in because the alternative is still worse.

I had never heard of conversion therapy before today, I actually appalled.

 

[QV]

I quit the executive, I'm seriously thinking of quitting the party although I expect I'll be lost in the wilderness because I'm not an LPC fan.

No need to be lost in the wilderness. You could join the PPC. That is, if you can get past the media and CPC smears and societal ostracization by association. They're platform actually sounded reasonable.

 

[FJAG]

You are absolutely correct here

I expect we'll never ever change each other's mind here so let's just agree to never discuss it again.

 

[Remius]

Trump won based on Hillary hate then Biden won on Trump hate, at a certain point it is effective.

You actually could make a pretty compelling party based on JT Sucks, you just need to air it all out, and have a solution, because clearly Canada isn't done with this Castro Trudeau yet, so hate and hate alone won't get the job done.

Ethics doesn't seem to be a major issue for Canadian Voters though -- unless it's the CAF.

I agree. Harper was ousted based on that same thought premise.

But alternatives are required. Trudeau offered an alternative to Harper.

The CPC needs to find an alternative to Trudeau.

Hatred alone won’t do it.

 

[Remius]

I had never heard of conversion therapy before today, I actually appalled.

As are many moderates. It’s medieval thinking.

 

[Brad Sallows]

So few will discuss abortion honestly.

Most people against abortion are against it because their frame is that it kills a person. Most people against restrictions do not concede the threshold for "person" has been crossed until some later time. The entire debate hinges on the threshold for person-hood.

I suppose the situation in Canada is much the same as elsewhere, including the US: a majority of people are against complete restrictions, and a majority of people would like to see some restrictions. The majority of people can see that the "moment of birth" threshold is pretty damn artificial.

 

[Remius]

You are absolutely correct here

I disagree on your terminology, the same way you disagree mine, because mine working is descriptive and points to the death of the unborn baby as the result - than than Pro-Choice making it to be a simply Woman's issue, that men shook stay clear of, less they be misogynistic.
But if I accept your language, and the argument above, based on that, people who are pro choice, are thus paedophobic?


The flip side of the coin, are those who are generally against the Death Penalty are often Pro Abortion.

A real pro life stance (I’m not talking about your particular stance btw) would be having actual pro life policies. Tax breaks, financial incentives to keep the child, facilitate adoption and heck I’d even legalise a woman being paid to carry her baby to term, facilitate employment and education while pregnant etc etc. It just seems that the pro life political wing are all fine and dandy with being pro life up until the baby is born and then it’s crickets when it comes to yes SOCIAL policies to enable that.

I’d be curious to see how many pro lifers we have here that railed against universal child care. Seems like a weird conflicting stance to make.

 

[FJAG]

No need to be lost in the wilderness. You could join the PPC. That is, if you can get past the media and CPC smears and societal ostracization by association. They're platform actually sounded reasonable.

My jury is still out. Much of it depends on who gravitates toward it. I've seen lots of good platforms - the CPC proposes to work towards spending at least 2% of GDP on defence. How'd that work out for us?

 

[mariomike]

The flip side of the coin, are those who are generally against the Death Penalty are often Pro Abortion.

I wouldn't mind if they brought the Death Penalty back.

But, last time that happened in Canada was when they hanged two murderers ( one a cop killer ) back-to-back at the Don sixty years ago.

I doubt they will be bringing it back anytime soon.

As for Abortion, for those old enough to remember the late Chief Coroner of Ontario Morton Shulman, I posted this a while back,

In the Sixties, abortion could be legally performed only to save the life of the woman, so there were practically no legal abortions. He stated that the pregnant daughters of the rich were sent to reliable physicians who did abortions for cash. He estimated that these physicians did twenty to thirty abortions per week. Women who were not rich were left to perform an abortion on themselves or go to what he called a "nurse" abortionist. Their method was commonly pumping Lysol into the woman's womb. The mortality rate was high and the infection rate over 50%. He added, "By the time I became Chief Coroner, I had had the unpleasant experience of seeing the bodies of some dozens of young women who had died as a result of these amateur abortions."
Chief Coroner Morton Shulman decided to publicize deaths from illegal abortions. He instructed his coroners to call a public inquest into each abortion death. He describes one case that he believes was the turning point, that of 34-year-old Lottie Leanne Clarke, a mother of three children, who died of a massive infection in 1964 after an illegal abortion in spite of medical treatment and antibiotics. At the inquest into her death, the jury recommended that the laws about therapeutic abortion be revised. Dr. Shulman added that a federal government committee should review the question of abortion and the law. Newspapers published editorials recommending the reform of the abortion law. In 1965, the Minister of Justice, Guy Favreau, wrote to Dr. Shulman that the recommendation would be considered in the program to amend the Criminal Code. The eventual amendment closely followed the recommendations of the coroners' juries.

 

[Altair]

A real pro life stance (I’m not talking about your particular stance btw) would be having actual pro life policies. Tax breaks, financial incentives to keep the child, facilitate adoption and heck I’d even legalise a woman being paid to carry her baby to term, facilitate employment and education while pregnant etc etc. It just seems that the pro life political wing are all fine and dandy with being pro life up until the baby is born and then it’s crickets when it comes to yes SOCIAL policies to enable that.

I’d be curious to see how many pro lifers we have here that railed against universal child care. Seems like a weird conflicting stance to make.

Universal child care, CCB, a lot of programs people seem to disagree with the LPC implementing despite being so called pro life.

 

[Brad Sallows]

A real pro life stance

You can't redefine "pro-life" to mean whatever you want. People in all corners of the abortion debate should be in the habit of steel-manning their opponents' arguments. To a person against murder (as a moral idea) who believes abortion is murder, the "pro-life" aim is met by preventing the murder.

 

[Altair]

So social programs?

 

[Remius]

You can't redefine "pro-life" to mean whatever you want. People in all corners of the abortion debate should be in the habit of steel-manning their opponents' arguments. To a person against murder (as a moral idea) who believes abortion is murder, the "pro-life" aim is met by preventing the murder.

Yes, yes, I’m offering my opinion on it.

But the hypocrisy of the traditional pro life camp is sometimes astounding. Both sides cherry pick.

 

[QV]

My jury is still out. Much of it depends on who gravitates toward it. I've seen lots of good platforms - the CPC proposes to work towards spending at least 2% of GDP on defence. How'd that work out for us?

Just you even looking at the PPC, I consider that a huge win (against media spin), regardless of the choice you ultimately make.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I actually don't think it's a bad thing they got rid of Erin O'Toole and don't even think this had anything to do with Erin O'Toole being too WOKE.

I think this letter in the Calgary Sun does a great job of highlighting the real issue with O'Toole:

Letters, Feb. 2: 'O'Toole had his chance to beat Trudeau and blew it'

O’TOOLE IS NOT THE GUY

calgarysun.com

Hit the nail squarely on the head with that comment IMO. Ironically, the revolt was led by some of the younger members of the Caucus.

Also, when they said Hutzpah, they obviously meant to type Chutzpah. For this who haven't heard that word before:

Chutzpah: extreme self-confidence or audacity

What is needed is a Mensch, not another Meshuggeneh. There has been too much mishegas as of late. Trudeau's current schtick is getting long in the tooth and has definitely past a good schmooze. If he manages to pull off another election win he can kiss my tuches.
As for our much need Mensch, I'm verklempt at this point and have bupkis to say as to who it could be.

 

[Altair]

Just you even looking at the PPC, I consider that a huge win (against media spin), regardless of the choice you ultimately make.

I really hope more people switch from CPC to PPC.

 

[KevinB]

Yes, yes, I’m offering my opinion on it.

But the hypocrisy of the traditional pro life camp is sometimes astounding. Both sides cherry pick.

Hypocrisy exists in leagues on either side. But as @Brad Sallows pointed out, some aspects are just personal beliefs (I chose beliefs over other words intentionally so as not to provoke a larger fight).

As I mentioned above, before one was to even consider bringing the Legal aspect to the forefront a lot of work would need to be done to find alternative solutions that are beneficial. Those support structures don't necessarily need to include Universal Child Care - but there does need to be a way to assist both the pregnant women and young mothers financially - you could structure it however you want depends on what side the aisle you are on.


If I was running for the CPC, I'd include a heavy part of Political Reform - to change ethics laws, and aim for massive criminal penalties for Public Servants who abuse their roles for financial and other gains.