2022 CPC Leadership Discussion: Et tu Redeux

[Altair]

Or a new Israel, who's had a number of government combos over time, with (loud, boisterous debate/discussion happening there all the time) not unreasonable results. Depends on the players and the voters in question, maybe ...

Israel is weird in the sense that they are a two party state, seperated into many different smaller parties.

The fact that you NEED a governing coalition instead of just working in a parliamentary minority vote per vote makes it an oddball.

PM Trudeau has more flexibility in parliament than PM Bennett despite the former being FPTP and the latter being PR

 

[Drallib]

You let an invisible skygod influence your thinking and how you live your life?

An “invisible skygod” that met Paul in the flesh (who at the time was killing the Christians) and then became an Apostle and preached about the same Jesus that met him, and he eventually was beheaded for his testimony. Not to mention the 10 of Jesus’ disciples who were martyred brutally. Yes.

(A little off topic, just answering the question)

 

[Altair]

An “invisible skygod” that met Paul in the flesh (who at the time was killing the Christians) and then became an Apostle and preached about the same Jesus that met him, and he eventually was beheaded for his testimony. Not to mention the 10 of Jesus’ disciples who were martyred brutally. Yes.

(A little off topic, just answering the question)

Honest question.

Would you prefer a CPC that champions pro life rights and never wins an election

Or

A CPC that shuts down the pro life faction and can potentially win an election?

 

[MilEME09]

Honest question.

Would you prefer a CPC that champions pro life rights and never wins an election

Or

A CPC that shuts down the pro life faction and can potentially win an election?

I'd prefer a CPC that listens to the electorate instead of finge elements of the party

 

[Altair]

I'd prefer a CPC that listens to the electorate instead of finge elements of the party

I'm no card carrying member of the CPC, but can you really call the SOCONs a fringe group?

They won Scheer the leadership and they won true blue conservative O'Toole the leadership over red tory Mackay. And enough people were reportedly mad enough over the conversion therapy vote to oust O'Toole.

Doesnt seem very fringe to me.

 

[Good2Golf]

I'd prefer a CPC that listens to the electorate instead of finge elements of the party

Thar she goes….

 

[Remius]

An “invisible skygod” that met Paul in the flesh (who at the time was killing the Christians) and then became an Apostle and preached about the same Jesus that met him, and he eventually was beheaded for his testimony. Not to mention the 10 of Jesus’ disciples who were martyred brutally. Yes.

(A little off topic, just answering the question)

Do you follow everything in that book? Because it tells people to do a lot evil things. I think it’s the Picking and choosing that non religious people find odd.

Which is why the SOCONS who base their ideology heavily on religious dogma have a hard time making in roads writ large with the voting public.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The country has decided and its considered distasteful to keep bringing it up.

Obviously "the country" has not decided. There is no "the debate is over" on this issue (or many others). "I have what I want and we stop talking about it now" is a non-starter.

 

[Altair]

Obviously "the country" has not decided.

The country has decided, the CPC has not.

60 percent of Canadians are pro choice, 13 percent identify as pro life, thats pretty darn lopsided.

Its as decided as gay marriage, which is also pretty darn decided. The more the CPC talks about it and have votes on the issue, the more out of touch they appear.

 

[Altair]

Do you follow everything in that book? Because it tells people to do a lot evil things. I think it’s the Picking and choosing that non religious people find odd.

Which is why the SOCONS who base their ideology heavily on religious dogma have a hard time making in roads writ large with the voting public.

I do find it funny that the same people pushing Christian religious dogma would be appalled if Islamic religious dogma was being pushed.

Its better for all if religion is left out of politics, but on this case it's unusually front and center.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Back to the leadership, here's what Cheryl Gallant - someone known to be less-than-fully disciplined in messaging - has to say

Yesterday, after a vote in caucus, Erin O’Toole stepped down as leader of the Conservative Party of Canada.

I want to thank Erin for his service to our country in both his capacity as a former Canadian Armed Forces member, and as Leader of Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition, and for his graceful exit.

I wish to congratulate my friend and colleague, Candice Bergen on being elected as our interim leader. Candice has proven her leadership and commitment to our Party’s values when she successfully passed legislation to end the Liberal’s failed long-gun registry.

The Conservative Party has begun the process of selecting a new leader. I encourage all Canadians who are tired of Liberal lockdowns to come together under the Conservative banner. Justin Trudeau can only win a majority if Conservatives are divided. That is why Trudeau stokes fear and division.

I look forward to working with our new leader to put forward a positive vision which unites Canadians.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Politics is just an ongoing negotiation over how people live together, and how people live is for many inflected by religion. Obviously religion can't be left out of politics; all we can do is withhold official preferential treatment. Setting aside divine inspiration, religious codes are expressions of underlying beliefs and preferences and rules. Moral issues stand on their own without any religious mandate because moral questions are human and timeless.

Conservatives aren't bound by some law to choose between forbidding all discussion of any particular issue, or making it a central platform plank. There is a middle ground in which a party will take no official action to change status quo, but will allow discussion for those who wish to continue trying to persuade others. Obviously to allow discussion on any issue is the first wedge into a door that some want to keep closed. ("The debate is over!") It's a curious world in which conservatives have become the more tolerant faction.

 

[Altair]

Conservatives aren't bound by some law to choose between forbidding all discussion of any particular issue, or making it a central platform plank. There is a middle ground in which a party will take no official action to change status quo, but will allow discussion for those who wish to continue trying to persuade others. Obviously to allow discussion on any issue is the first wedge into a door that some want to keep closed. ("The debate is over!") It's a curious world in which conservatives have become the more tolerant faction.

Yet when painted as the party of anti abortion, Conservatives bristle or run from the topic.

Yet every time they are painted as the party of anti abortion, and their support in the public drops, it's the LPC fault for smearing them.

This status quo the CPC tries to manage is untenable. One cannot say they are not the party of anti abortion when they are the only party in parliament that brings it up. They cannot say they are not the party of anti abortion when they are the only party that welcomes anti abortion voices.

And so long as they do, 6 out of 10 Canadians wont vote for them. The LPC and NDP both have more Canadians would would consider voting for them than the CPC does.

If that is the price the CPC want to pay for their tolerant stance on the abortion issue, well, I hope Conservatives don't complain when they continue to lose elections.

 

[Brad Sallows]

4 out of 10 is enough to form a majority in Parliament. So that'll do.

 

[The Bread Guy]

4 out of 10 elected in the right places is enough to form a majority in Parliament. So that'll do.

With our FPTP system, FTFY

 

[Altair]

4 out of 10 is enough to form a majority in Parliament. So that'll do.

4 out of 10 is enough, 6 out of ten is a lot easier to work with.

Especially if that 6 out of ten is spread out more evenly than the 4 out of 10.

Again, the CPC sets itself up for failure in this regard, and people then blame the electorate for reelecting what some call a ethically bankrupt and corrupt LPC.

Maybe the CPC should listen to the electorate. Majority of people are pro choice.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Again, the CPC sets itself up for failure in this regard, and people then blame the electorate for reelecting what some call a ethically bankrupt and corrupt LPC.

It's not the CPC's fault that people vote LPC. The people are entirely responsible. They have the option to not vote at all if they do not in fact want in any way to stand behind "ethically bankrupt and corrupt" or "allows people to talk about abortion and SSM".

Trudeau's government has a little over 6 years in hand, for one majority and two minorities. Just the past 50 years of Canadian federal governments suggests that result is neither anything to be proud of or despondent about. If the LPC is still going strong in year 12, then maybe conservatives should start to worry.

Majority of people are pro choice.

That assertion is worthless, regardless who repeats it. How people report on abortion depends on the question. An unadorned claim that most people are for or against is worthless, because what surveys almost always reveal is that "the majority" occupies a middle ground between "none" and "all". My guess: "majority of people are pro-limit starting some time between start and end of second trimester".

 

[Navy_Pete]

Back to the leadership, here's what Cheryl Gallant - someone known to be less-than-fully disciplined in messaging - has to say

I find it appaling that she's an MP (for any party); what a thoroughly useless human being.

 

[Altair]

It's not the CPC's fault that people vote LPC.

Yes it is.

If they cannot present themselves as a viable alternative, that's on them.

The people are entirely responsible.

The people pick the best choice for them out of the options provided.

The CPC is failing to be a lot of peoples best choice, again, that's on them. Same goes for any other party.

They have the option to not vote at all if they do not in fact want in any way to stand behind "ethically bankrupt and corrupt" or "allows people to talk about abortion and SSM".

If they don't vote and other do then you get results like 2011. People will vote to prevent a party from winning, that's what the left learned from 2011.

Trudeau's government has a little over 6 years in hand, for one majority and two minorities. Just the past 50 years of Canadian federal governments suggests that result is neither anything to be proud of or despondent about. If the LPC is still going strong in year 12, then maybe conservatives should start to worry.

With the way the CPC seems intent on going, I am of the opinion that we will be seeing exactly that result.

That assertion is worthless, regardless who repeats it. How people report on abortion depends on the question. An unadorned claim that most people are for or against is worthless, because what surveys almost always reveal is that "the majority" occupies a middle ground between "none" and "all". My guess: "majority of people are pro-limit starting some time between start and end of second trimester".

Majority of Canadians 'satisfied' with the country's abortion policies: poll

A majority of the Canadian public are satisfied with the country’s abortion policies, a new poll says. The DART & Maru/Blue Voice Canada poll released on Friday says 75 per cent of Canadians were “satisfied” with Canada’s abortion policies, with 25 per cent indicating they are not satisfied...

toronto.citynews.ca

• 75 per cent of Canadians were "satisfied" with Canada's abortion policies
• 62 per cent of Canadians identify as pro-choice, 13 per cent of Canadians identify as pro-life
• Seventy-one per cent believe that a woman should be able to get an abortion if she decides she wants one no matter what the reason

The results are pretty darn clear, it's due to your beliefs that you choose to ignore said results and stick your head in the sand.

But the fact remains that the majority of Canadians are pro choice, and you ignoring it isn't going to change that fact.

 

[Brad Sallows]

If they cannot present themselves as a viable alternative, that's on them.

Blaming one group for another group's faults. You just shat yourself big time.

The results are pretty darn clear

...of one survey. Well done.