2023 UCP Alberta election

[Deleted member 175000]

The biggest issue is that somebody somewhere failed to account for, or actively ignored, the liabilities inherent in a voluntary plan from which the participants could withdraw at their discretion.

Actually, somebody failed to account for, or actively ignored, that a method appropriate for calculating the withdrawal liabilities for a pay as you plan with contributions invested directly in provincial bonds could dramatically overstate the withdrawal liabilities for a plan that is establishing long term solvency through a balanced portfolio with impressive investment performance.

 

[brihard]

Simple they are overwhelming the system here. While not using their system in their home province.

Ok but they’re not in their home province. They’re working in Alberta. Going to the doctor in the province you’re living and working in, even temporarily, isn’t a scam. What would you have them do, hop on a plane to a different province to access primary care?

If Alberta has chosen to open the doors to out of province workers, it has to be expected that that will increase demand on certain services. Failure to adequately resource those services is not the fault of the service users, which Alberta and its industries sought to attract to the province in the first place.

So yeah, you described it as a ‘scam’, but it isn’t at all that.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

It's all academic.
We have 'universal healthcare.' With all its warts and boils.
A person is entitled to the same healthcare standards where ever they're at, or what ever province they are from.

 

[childs56]

Ok but they’re not in their home province. They’re working in Alberta. Going to the doctor in the province you’re living and working in, even temporarily, isn’t a scam. What would you have them do, hop on a plane to a different province to access primary care?

If Alberta has chosen to open the doors to out of province workers, it has to be expected that that will increase demand on certain services. Failure to adequately resource those services is not the fault of the service users, which Alberta and its industries sought to attract to the province in the first place.

So yeah, you described it as a ‘scam’, but it isn’t at all that.

It is when they don't seek treatment in their province they live in. But instead the province they work in....

 

[Brad Sallows]

Not sure what the fuss is about. "Portability" is one of the requirements imposed by CHA. Provinces bill back to home provinces. I doubt much is offset by people claiming residency in one province for income tax purposes and another for health care billing. I'd have to see actual numbers before entertaining any assertion that the amount of money matters.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

It is when they don't seek treatment in their province they live in. But instead the province they work in....

Which is one in the same under the Charter Section 6 and The Canada Health Act.

Until you rewrite the Constitution to require Work visas between provinces, sucks to suck.

 

[childs56]

Universal Healthcare is a federal concept. It is provincially ran independently. That is why there is such a wide gap across the country for services covered and rendered. Eastern Canada would suck every resource out of Western Canada without even second thought.

There were more then a few articles a couple years back about the issues with mass amounts of OOP workers using local infrastructure while contributing little to nothing to the local economy. Even demanding services that they could seek in their own province of residence. But instead choose to take the Alberta (western Canadian)advantage. Funny magically not sick on days off. Return to work and all of a sudden that knee problem comes back.

 

[lenaitch]

I took an admittedly cursory look at the thumbnails of provincial health coverages and, quite frankly, didn't see a "wide gap" in services covered.

Canada’s Provincial Health Plans - What Does Your Province Cover?

What does your provincial coverage entail? Learn more about your entitlements and how they compare to the other provincial plans in Canada and how to apply.

sbis.ca

I guess I'm not getting the argument. If I am an out-of-province worker, spending a considerable amount of time in another province, of course I'm going to need to access its healthcare, along with breath its air and drink its water. Some workers in 'the oil patch' that I have spoken to would be in for three weeks and home for one, or something like that.

If I was suffering from knee problems, what would be the logic of seeking medical care in Alberta vs a home province, other than the fact that they are physically there, more.

I'm also unclear how people living for long periods of time in an area don't contribute to the local economy. They eat, buy stuff, maybe pay rent. Did all the pick-ups in Fort Mac get driven in from St. John's? The fact that they might not be contributing to the provincial consumption tax base is a decision Alberta has made.

 

[Deleted member 175000]

Might be some clarity soon

Letter from the Deputy Prime Minister to provincial and territorial Finance Ministers regarding the Canada Pension Plan - Canada.ca

After Trudeau's infantile bluster, GC might finally be taking the sensible track by assuming the role of adults in the room and pointing out all the holes in Smith's bought and paid for fantasy analysis. Enough with the hyperbolic fearmongering.

• Give Albertans an asset transfer number
• explain the failings/risks in the Smith pitch, (ignoring non-resident liability, assuming the current minimum contribution rate rather than keeping a margin of safety, worries about portability)
• give Alberta an opportunity to go to Albertan's with a realistic, responsible plan.
• Let Albertan's decide if the juice is worth the squeeze

 

[QV]

The GoA stating it could do better on it's own is not fantasy nor hyperbolic fearmongering.

Why does the RoC care so much if Alberta left?

What is wrong with seeking the same arrangements Quebec has?

 

[Deleted member 175000]

The GoA stating it could do better on it's own is not fantasy nor hyperbolic fearmongering.

The hyberbolic fearmongering is coming from the GoC, not the GoA. The fantasy is coming from the GoA.

Why does the RoC care so much if Alberta left?

Big Picture -Alberta leaving the CPP, even at an appropriate asset transfer that doesn't materially increase RoC contribution rates, introduces sources of structural friction and inefficiency that will drag on performance and make things worse for everyone. Doubling up on admin costs/ smaller investment pools, increased administrative complexity/ reduced worker mobility etc. If the overall stewardship/governance is not up to par and performance suffers it becomes not only a serious threat to mobility, but a much more serious threat to the financial stability of Canadians that contribute.

Small picture- because they're getting worked up by political sideshow of misrepresentation, and really shouldn't care as much.

What is wrong with seeking the same arrangements Quebec has?

Nothing, hence "Let Albertans decide." But first the facts need to be put on the table because "the same arrangements Quebec has" isn't the same as what Smith is pitching, and what actually is just might not be all that great.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Doubling up on admin costs/ smaller investment pools, increased administrative complexity/ reduced worker mobility etc. If the overall stewardship/governance is not up to par and performance suffers it becomes not only a serious threat to mobility, but a much more serious threat to the financial stability of Canadians that contribute.

All of these problems must already exist for the QPP- if not, then why - and the world has not ended.

APP governors could simply follow the investments of the CPP/QPP.

 

[Good2Golf]

All of these problems must already exist for the QPP- if not, then why - and the world has not ended.

APP governors could simply follow the investments of the CPP/QPP.

And the argument about admin costs increasing ignores that administration fees/costs of funds General scale, so smaller (relatively) of an APIF to support the APP would likely be no more onerous than the admin costs of the CPIF in support of the CPP. To argue otherwise would ignore that the CPIF was being productive a decade ago, when it was smaller than what a hypothetical post-APP fund would have…

 

[Quirky]

The GoA stating it could do better on it's own is not fantasy nor hyperbolic fearmongering.

Why does the RoC care so much if Alberta left?

Most people I've talked to would rather lose some value in CPP and have this as leverage against the idiot liberal feds.

 

[Deleted member 175000]

All of these problems must already exist for the QPP- if not, then why - and the world has not ended.

APP governors could simply follow the investments of the CPP/QPP.

The world hasn't ended. But CPP + QPP is not as efficient as CPP with Quebec in it. The APP would effect things similarly. Things can be "less good than they could be" without being outright bad.

The whole point is that
A. once the asset transfer question is settled in a reasonable way
B. once the portability/current non-residence liability hole is addressed
C. if good governance wins the day and contribution rates are periodically calculated with appropriate buffers, rather than projected the bare minimum
D. if good governance wins the day and the resultant fund is managed by a non partisan investment board that duplicates CPPIF

Tada, the APP is just the CPP with an Alberta flag draped over it, with a very slight short term benefit fueled by what is likely a non permanent demographic trend (check out Quebec), and permanent administrative friction/ added costs.

 

[Good2Golf]

The world hasn't ended. But CPP + QPP is not as efficient as CPP with Quebec in it. The APP would effect things similarly. Things can be "less good than they could be" without being outright bad.

Reference?

Kind of hard to state such, as Quebec never joined CPP…

 

[Brad Sallows]

The world hasn't ended. But CPP + QPP is not as efficient as CPP with Quebec in it.

Which doesn't matter. The outcome doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be good enough.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Meanwhile, a good example of what most Albertans really care about

 

[brihard]

A useful exercise for determining fair present valuation of Alberta’s contributions might be to assess CPP as if each and every province were all to withdraw simultaneously, and each had to be paid out. That would allow for a determination of a fair and proportionate value in a way that’s inherently logical and defensible.

Come up with that number and put that out there for consideration. Alberta has every right to pursue this, but everyone needs to disengage from fantasy and ensure that whatever results equally protects the value of these investments for all Canadians. Otherwise we could conceivably see exactly that- a sudden dissolution of CPP as provinces all race to get out at once, lest their residents lose out excessively on the value of their public pension contributions.

 

[Deleted member 175000]

Reference?

Basic organizational/ business principles. More separate programs to deliver the same service equals more overhead, more processes, more processing.