2025 U.S. - Venezuela conflict

[McG]

So, absolutely he can and will make the claim of immunity that attaches to the person of a head of state / head of government while in office. It’s old and broadly recognized customary international law. But it’s not held as absolute; the inviolability of a head of state has not prevailed against allegations of crimes against humanity, or instance.

The Pinochet case in British court is an imperfect but still useful precedent. There’s a fair claim to be made that that’s where western judicial systems began to shift from the absolute inviolability of a head of state.

Against the legal path of trying to argue for piercing this conventional immunity to prosecute domestic U.S. crimes pertaining to drugs and firearms, a cleaner legal case might be to supersede the indictment to focus on alleging international crimes like torture or other crimes against humanity based on how Maduro ran his regime. That could be easier for US federal courts to navigate around sovereign immunity questions. With that said, any alleged crimes from before he was president would not be protected by that immunity, so depending on what’s alleged it may not matter. I’ve not yet read the indictment.

And what would be the impact on courts within a nation that has recent precedent that anything done by a president is legal if it was done officially as president?

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-939_e2pg.pdf

 

[brihard]

And what would be the impact on courts within a nation that has recent precedent that anything done by a president is legal if it was done as president?

That’s not what SCOTUS actually decided. They instead defined this really awkward division between ‘core’ Presidential authorities that carry absolute immunity, ‘non-core’ acts that must be examined case by case, and acts not taken in any official capacity. But it was all predicated on an immunity created on the spot by SCOTUS (it’s not an explicitly constitutional or statutory thing) that applies to the president of the U.S. It would not extend to other heads of state. The sovereign immunity attached to heads of state is an immunity against foreign prosecution.

 

[ytz]

Venezuela isn’t infected with islam, so they’re already ahead.

Cause Latin America is known to be famously peaceful and stable because it has no Islam?

 

[ytz]

Just watched some footage of Madero in New York. I wonder if he could just claim diplomatic immunity in court making any sort of legal case immaterial. He is still the head of a nation.

Diplomatic Immunity isn't actual legal right. It's custom derived out of convention. Countries generally recognize it because it's beneficial all around to recognize it. And they exercise it through prosecutorial discretion. Not legal judgements.

For example, in Ottawa, we had a Russian diplomat that killed a pedestrian while drunk. He was not charged in Canada. But Moscow did charge and convict him.

Diplomatic incidents: Rare, but attention-grabbing

The cases are infrequent, but Canadian diplomats and consular officials have been involved in some high-profile incidents during their foreign postings. Though this…

ottawacitizen.com

 

[ytz]

Perhaps, but at what cost? The geopolitical ramifications will likely be felt for decades, and I doubt the US will be fully in control of them

I still remember 2002/2003 when everybody thought Iraq was going to be easy. Remember this right before everything went to shit and the insurgency started:

 

[dapaterson]

Diplomatic Immunity isn't actual legal right. It's custom derived out of convention. Countries generally recognize it because it's beneficial all around to recognize it. And they exercise it through prosecutorial discretion. Not legal judgements.

For example, in Ottawa, we had a Russian diplomat that killed a pedestrian while drunk. He was not charged in Canada. But Moscow did charge and convict him.

Diplomatic incidents: Rare, but attention-grabbing

The cases are infrequent, but Canadian diplomats and consular officials have been involved in some high-profile incidents during their foreign postings. Though this…

ottawacitizen.com

Numerous pieces of legislation and regulation govern that; a decent Canadian summary can be found at: Scope of Immunities and Summary of Law Enforcement Measures - Bilateral Postings

 

[brihard]

Diplomatic Immunity isn't actual legal right. It's custom derived out of convention. Countries generally recognize it because it's beneficial all around to recognize it. And they exercise it through prosecutorial discretion. Not legal judgements.

That's utterly incorrect. It's absolutely a legal right, both statutorily and by customary international law. Don't mistake the fact that certain law is described as 'customary' or 'conventional' as meaning it's any less 'legal'. International and domestic courts absolutely recognize and base decisions on customary or conventional international law. Obviously not all CIL has crystallized in state practice and opinio juris to an equal extent, but the customary law around diplomatic immunity is as solid as it gets.

In the case of diplomatic immunities, though, you will find those various immunities spelled out in the 1961 Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations. Criminal immunity, for instance, is found in Article 31 of that treaty. Further, Canada has domestically codified it in the Foreign Missions and International Organizations Act, which imports the immunities sections of the VCDR into our own domestic law. It is typical for states party to international treaties to pass domestic laws giving those treaties effect.

Not criminally charging a accredited diplomatic agent is not a matter of prosecutorial discretion that is optional; it's just flat out prohibited - except for where the sending state waives immunity, which can and does happen occasionally.

However, the immunities attached to a foreign head of state for actions taken within their own country are a sovereign immunity matter, not a diplomatic immunity one. They're different immunities, distinct from each other.

 

[RangerRay]

However unilateral regime change isn't something we really want to encourage in the world.

This time they didn’t even bother to have a legal fight leaf, or construct a “coalition of the willing”.

Regime change didn’t work well the last time the Yanks tried it. I’m sure it will work out differently this time though.

The people of Canada don’t like to see a legitimate election winner take power?

Trump has stated he is is working with Maduro’s illegitimate VP, not the legitimately elected candidate for president, so that aged like old milk.

Yup, just started watching. He also they they were and are prepared to launch larger second strikes but he doesn’t think they need to now.

The claims are staked.

• The United States will politically control Venezuela until an unspecified ‘transition’.
• U.S. oil companies will take over the Venezuelan oil industry.
• The U.S. Military will enforce these aims.

No lack of clarity about exactly what this is.

It will be entertaining to see MAGA blame the “neo-cons” for this debacle…

 

[PrairieFella]

Having had to convert to Islam, anything that helps reduce or stops the spread of it, is a good thing.

That is a very confusing juxtaposition in your statement lol

 

[ytz]

That's utterly incorrect. It's absolutely a legal right, both statutorily and by customary international law. Don't mistake the fact that certain law is described as 'customary' or 'conventional' as meaning it's any less 'legal'. International and domestic courts absolutely recognize and base decisions on customary or conventional international law. Obviously not all CIL has crystallized in state practice and opinio juris to an equal extent, but the customary law around diplomatic immunity is as solid as it gets.

In the case of diplomatic immunities, though, you will find those various immunities spelled out in the 1961 Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations. Criminal immunity, for instance, is found in Article 31 of that treaty. Further, Canada has domestically codified it in the Foreign Missions and International Organizations Act, which imports the immunities sections of the VCDR into our own domestic law. It is typical for states party to international treaties to pass domestic laws giving those treaties effect.

Not criminally charging a accredited diplomatic agent is not a matter of prosecutorial discretion that is optional; it's just flat out prohibited - except for where the sending state waives immunity, which can and does happen occasionally.

However, the immunities attached to a foreign head of state for actions taken within their own country are a sovereign immunity matter, not a diplomatic immunity one. They're different immunities, distinct from each other.

You're discussing this in the context of Canada. How much of this is true in other countries? Mostly notably applicable to our discussion the US. Also, with all of this, it can be handwaved away by simply saying Maduro doesn't have diplomatic immunity. You can see why people think international law is rather flimsy. Seems almost optional. And really enforcement is only one direction. Nobody is ever going to do to an American President what they just did to Maduro.

 

[brihard]

You're discussing this in the context of Canada. How much of this is true in other countries? Mostly notably applicable to our discussion the US. Also, with all of this, it can be handwaved away by simply saying Maduro doesn't have diplomatic immunity. You can see why people think international law is rather flimsy. Seems almost optional. And really enforcement is only one direction. Nobody is ever going to do to an American President what they just did to Maduro.

No, I’m discussing diplomatic immunity as it is globally recognized and applied, and the real life cases on this will support that. Note that I referred to the 1961 convention that practically every state is a party to. I referred to our own domestic law, but the U.S. has done the same thing, codifying the provisions of VCDR 1961 in chapter 6 of title 22 of the U.S. Code, their body of federal law.

However, the U.S. doesn’t need to ‘handwave’ away diplomatic immunity in Maduro’s case. He does not have it, he was not a diplomatic agent under VCDR; it doesn’t apply. I specifically differentiated between diplomatic immunity enjoyed by accredited diplomatic agents and their families, and the sovereign immunity from foreign criminal law that attaches to the person of a head of state or government while in office. I went into a decent amount of detail on this sovereign immunity as well. Maybe consider giving my last few posts a re-read?

 

[Eaglelord17]

And really enforcement is only one direction. Nobody is ever going to do to an American President what they just did to Maduro.

And the sun never sets on the British empire…

Times change and they can change quickly. What is a given today isn’t necessarily a given tomorrow. Actions taken today become justification for actions in the future.

 

[The Bread Guy]

There are two places in Ontario where there is only one roadway connecting east and west Canada; from the Manitoba border to just east of Kenora (where Hwys 71 and 11 are an alternate), and from Thunder Bay to Nipigon. The government's answer is to twin both of these sections - slowly.

Some people have advocated for a second 'greenfield' highway. It would go through the wilderness and connect no new communities.

Redundancy has a cost that the taxpayer would have to bear.

Parochial of me to forget that bit of the 807 - thanks!

 

[OldSolduer]

Who ever gets to be in charge of Venezuela is going to have a rough time. This could be really interesting. Anyone see this yet?

 

[The Bread Guy]

Wordsmithing time!

Catholic media: can't call it "kidnapping" because there was SOME criminal document trail there, and we can't call it "arrest" because that would legitimize the whole process. Hang on, I've got an idea ....

Ahead of U.N. Venezuela meeting, world powers respond to Maduro extraction

Pope Leo XIV has not yet commented on Saturday's operation, though observers expect him to address the situation at his midday Angelus prayer on Sunday.

www.catholicnewsagency.com

... although the Pope himself did use the word "arrest" as part of his big Sunday Angelus:

Pope on Venezuela: Overcome violence, safeguard country’s sovereignty - Vatican News

At the Angelus prayer, Pope Leo XIV calls for the good of the Venezuelan people to prevail, for the rule of law to be upheld, and for the human and ...

www.vaticannews.va

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I am just going to inject a bit of a different perspective here: Anybody noticed that Heggset didn't announce the operation on social media in advance of it occurring?

 

[The Bread Guy]

I am just going to inject a bit of a different perspective here: Anybody noticed that Heggset didn't announce the operation on social media in advance of it occurring?

You must be on a different Signal chat than him on that ....

 

[Nvlgzr]

May you live in interesting times indeed:
View attachment 97554

wow! What happened to Jewish space laser MTG. She’s actually talking sensible now that she’s out of Donnie’s sphere.

 

[GK .Dundas]

Who ever gets to be in charge of Venezuela is going to have a rough time. This could be really interesting. Anyone see this yet?

Somehow I'm not all that surprised.

 

[Remius]

wow! What happened to Jewish space laser MTG. She’s actually talking sensible now that she’s out of Donnie’s sphere.

I don’t think she’s changed at all.

She was always on about the Epstein files for example. She has always been against things like foreign entanglements and interference in other countries and wars and spending any time and effort on those things.

She is many things but I can at least give her credit for being consistent in her positions (right or wrong) which is more than I can say for some.