2026 US-Denmark Tensions/End of NATO

[Altair]

Your referring to 12yrs out of 250yrs - We had 10yrs of Trudeau, which was a disastrous for this country in so many ways. That's 10yrs out of 159yrs. Which is statistically worse?

That's the wrong way to look at it.

It's the most recent hands at the tiller that matter. It doesn't matter how many good pilots a plane has had if the last one is determined to nosedive into the ground.

But it's been true of history that most empires collapse from within after a series of bad leaders. So whether we start at Bush or Trump, the USA is suffering from a series of bad leaders and the system is slowly collapsing. Doesn't matter what Truman or Reagan or Washington or Adams did in the past, the most recent leaders of the USA are squandering all their good work.

 

[ytz]

Well if Obama is a barometer for bad, we shouldn't neglect the strategic genius of Bush, mr start two wars in the middle east with no plan on how to win them and lead up to the worse financial crisis seen in generations, so

Bush, Bush, Obama, Obama, Trump, Biden, Trump.

Not to mention the financial crisis. The Iraq War and the 2008 GFC is when the decline started. Hasn't reversed since.

You can actually see it in polling. Look at responses to "Is the country going in the right direction?" Positive responses before Iraq. Negative responses consistently after.

 

[Altair]

Not to mention the financial crisis. The Iraq War and the 2008 GFC is when the decline started. Hasn't reversed since.

You can actually see it in polling. Look at responses to "Is the country going in the right direction?" Positive responses before Iraq. Negative responses consistently after.

Bin Laden won didn't he?

 

[Czech_pivo]

Statistics don't matter. Impact does. For better or worse, Trudeau didn't do serious irreversible damage on the global stage. Trump is basically upending the global order as we know it. Even domestically, whatever you disagree with from Trudeau can be undone in due course.

It depends on the perspective that you're looking at this.

Trudeau did clear damage to the brand that is Canada across the world - both Allies and non-Allies. But it matter less on the impact of world stability because overall Canada matters very little around the world.

Trump is doing the same thing - clear damage to the brand that is called America, expect it does matter because of the role that the Americans play in the world, unlike us, they do matter.

The result is the exact same - both countries brands have been broken, both will need to be rebuilt. How/if that occurs is up to each country. But - which country stands to gain the most if its rebuilt the most effectively? Its us - we stand to gain the most because for decades we've lived, ridden, on our past and if we are able to get ourselves back to that 'past' then we will again punch well above our weight class.

 

[brihard]

Bin Laden won didn't he?

Well, he’d dead as hell so that’s arguable. What were Bin Laden’s strategic objectives, and did he achieve them?

 

[Altair]

It depends on the perspective that you're looking at this.

Trudeau did clear damage to the brand that is Canada across the world - both Allies and non-Allies. But it matter less on the impact of world stability because overall Canada matters very little around the world.

Trump is doing the same thing - clear damage to the brand that is called America, expect it does matter because of the role that the Americans play in the world, unlike us, they do matter.

The result is the exact same - both countries brands have been broken, both will need to be rebuilt. How/if that occurs is up to each country. But - which country stands to gain the most if its rebuilt the most effectively? Its us - we stand to gain the most because for decades we've lived, ridden, on our past and if we are able to get ourselves back to that 'past' then we will again punch well above our weight class.

Trump is so much worse than a "branding" issue. He's a systems issue. Trudeau never broke the Canadian system*. Trump is shattering the American system. And normal things that would stop a president from...lets say invading a NATO ally, are no longer able to do so.

*trudeau may have broken the senate, but it was already broken.

 

[ytz]

Bin Laden won didn't he?

Certainly one way to look at it.

But I'd say Putin kinda won. Bad as Iraq and the GFC were, the US was kinda rebounding after 2010, but then Putin discovered what dark money and social media targeting could do. And he basically managed to manipulate the US into destroying itself. People forget the Cambridge Analytica scandal, now that we pay those folks to build targeting software for us (Palantir). In hindsight, it's incredible that they allowed weapons grade social media targeting on the public.

 

[Altair]

Well, he’d dead as hell so that’s arguable.

There are many dead people who achieved their goals after they died.

What were Bin Laden’s strategic objectives, and did he achieve them?

Most people say he had two goals.

1) Drag America into unwinnable wars into the middle east.

2) Cause irreparable damage to the USA

He had a muddled record on the first point but may have succeeded on the second.

 

[ytz]

Trump is so much worse than a "branding" issue. He's a systems issue. Trudeau never broke the Canadian system*. Trump is shattering the American system. And normal things that would stop a president from...lets say invading a NATO ally, are no longer able to do so.

It's a rather typical Canadian desire to compare. "We have it just as bad."

No we fucking don't. And I thank god every fucking day for that.

 

[ytz]

Most people say he had two goals.

1) Drag America into unwinnable wars into the middle east.

2) Cause irreparable damage to the USA

He had a muddled record on the first point but may have succeeded on the second.

Very debatable. I wouldn't say his first point was successful. Iraq isn't great today. But it is mostly stable. And on #2, there's no way Bin Laden could have seen Trump coming. And really that's the person doing irreparable damage.

 

[FJAG]

I think if republicans can hold power until the democrats completely crash and burn, it'll help them come back to near middle.

The reverse is also true. America's problem is that the core middle ground factions in both parties are so evenly split that each party is dependent on courting the extreme wings to come out to vote in order to win elections. While there may still be a middle-ground public in America, the extreme wings dominate the party apparatus and its elected members.

There's really no coming back from this. Rest of the world slowly decouples away from the US. Unbelievable to me that this might be how China wins the 21st century.

We always said that China is in for the long game. The direction that America was heading became evident with Reagan when the Christian Right came away from a relatively "hands off politics" stance to actively lobbying their constituents to vote Republican in a backlash to Carter's election. That was compounded by the rise of the Tea Party just before Obama which then exploded after his election and led to a herd of Tea Partyish hard right factions.

I won't say that Trump was inevitable, but "a Trump-like candidate" certainly was. China and Russia just had to nurture social media a bit and America was bound to eventually implode.

 

[Furniture]

Trudeau never broke the Canadian system*.

He did, but it is a small break compared to what is happening down south.

The COVID years, and Trudeau's remarks about people who disagreed with his government's handling of COVID were essentially the LPC's "basket of deplorables" moments. The unconstitutional use of the EA just added fuel to the fire. You might not see it based on where you live and who makes up your social circles, but the break is there and a genuine (rather than the currently imagined) Maple MAGA might form if the current PM and LPC can't find a way to bridge the divides made in the last 10 years.

We as Canadians should be looking South to see what went wrong, and how we can fix it, but it seems both sides of the aisle are more concerned with "winning" the game than fixing the break.

That said, for all Trudeau's faults, he didn't threaten to annex an ally, so he's got that going for him.

 

[brihard]

PM Carney’s latest. Clearly situating us on side with the alliance.

https://twitter.com/x/status/2012935464068456858

 

[Altair]

Very debatable. I wouldn't say his first point was successful. Iraq isn't great today. But it is mostly stable. And on #2, there's no way Bin Laden could have seen Trump coming. And really that's the person doing irreparable damage.

Law of unintended consequences. Did Bin Laden see trump coming? Obviously not. Did he shape the ground that allowed Trump to show up on the scene? He might have.

 

[YZT580]

The treaty would need to be substantially rewritten and re-ratified to do that.

chance to remove the unanimous clause that keeps getting in the way.

 

[YZT580]

Its like the Romans. A series of bad emperors and the system crumbles from within. The USA has had Obama, Trump, Biden, Trump.

You forgot where it all started.

 

[ytz]

You forgot where it all started.

So blame the guy who had to clean up the GFC and Iraq and not the guy who actually made those mistakes?

How partisan can you get?

Obama had his faults. Especially on foreign policy (infamous "red line"). But all of that fails in comparison to the hand he was dealt. Man, people have really forgotten what 2008 was like.

 

[Czech_pivo]

The Trump insistence on stealing Greenland and subjugating its citizens does not have to result in the end of NATO. It could just result in the US expulsion.

https://twitter.com/x/status/2012699630589603999

By his definition then, the best solution for small countries is to obtain nuclear weapons as a deterrent.

 

[HavokFour]

So blame the guy who had to clean up the GFC and Iraq and not the guy who actually made those mistakes?

How partisan can you get?

Obama had his faults. Especially on foreign policy (infamous "red line"). But all of that fails in comparison to the hand he was dealt. Man, people have really forgotten what 2008 was like.

He wore a tan suit that one time though.

You are correct, this goes back somewhat further than Obama.

 

[ytz]

He wore a tan suit that one time though.

You are correct though, this goes back somewhat further than Obama.

And he couldn't wash off his tan.