2026 US-Denmark Tensions/End of NATO

[Gordon Dundas/]

What was it that Henry Kissenger is supposed to have said . "You're not really paranoid if they really are out to get you."
The Poles seem to have been just about everybody's favorite invasion route to invade just about everybody .
So I tend to cut them a little slack where this sort of thing is concerned.

 

[Gordon Dundas/]

France isn’t soft on the nation that perpetrated Katyn forest massacre.

This is true.

 

[Altair]

France isn’t soft on the nation that perpetrated Katyn forest massacre.

Poland is playing both sides, as they will never turn down more strategic alliances for their nation, but at the end of the day, the Americans don't care about Poland, or the Baltics, or NATO at all. They care about Israel and countering China, and if Poland doesn't have a part to play in either of those two goals, America will toss them to the wayside before too long.

Eventually the institutional weight of the EU will drag Poland into their defense orbit.

 

[Altair]

What was it that Henry Kissenger is supposed to have said . "You're not really paranoid if they really are out to get you."
The Poles seem to have been just about everybody's favorite invasion route to invade just about everybody .
So I tend to cut them a little slack where this sort of thing is concerned.

I wont begrudge Poland for grasping at the Americans, wanting to be the last to be cast aside as America abandons Europe.

So long as they are cognizant that they too are on the American chopping block, they just are not first in line.

With Poland hosting french nuclear capable rafales, and signing on to the EDIP, I think they are well aware.

 

[Brad Sallows]

What was it that Henry Kissenger is supposed to have said . "You're not really paranoid if they really are out to get you."
The Poles seem to have been just about everybody's favorite invasion route to invade just about everybody .
So I tend to cut them a little slack where this sort of thing is concerned.

Except for that time that they decided to participate in the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia, maybe.

 

[YZT580]

Poland is playing both sides, as they will never turn down more strategic alliances for their nation, but at the end of the day, the Americans don't care about Poland, or the Baltics, or NATO at all. They care about Israel and countering China, and if Poland doesn't have a part to play in either of those two goals, America will toss them to the wayside before too long.

Eventually the institutional weight of the EU will drag Poland into their defense orbit.

Do they really care or is it just a means of juicing the stock market? Trump seems to have caved to China almost as much as to Russia

 

[KevinB]

As for procurement, the USA can STFU. Is America buying any European military kit?

I get you are a blindly rabid anti-America.
But you may want to do some homework there.


Now yes generally most items ends up being produced here, but also at a scale generally many times larger than the OEM sells anywhere else.

 

[Altair]

I get you are a blindly rabid anti-America.

Except I'm not blind. I'm well informed rabidly anti america.

But you may want to do some homework there.

Homework? Homework? Okay, you, Kevin, show me what homework justifies the USA demanding that sovereign nations, with their citizens tax dollars, buy from American defense contractors?

Now yes generally most items ends up being produced here, but also at a scale generally many times larger than the OEM sells anywhere else.

Who gives a damn? It's not a two way street. America generally doesn't buy European anything. So they cannot claim unfair treatment if Europe decides, and have decided that the USA is blocked from EU continental defense procurement.

The USA can go pound sand here, the rest of NATO are not simply little puppet nations under Washingtons thumb. If they want to buy from local defense contractors, that's their perogative.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Europe sure has been hard done by over the years. American Leopards, American LeClercs, American Challengers, American Chieftans, American Marders, American Gepards, American Typhoons, American Mirages, American Rafales...

 

[Altair]

Europe sure has been hard done by over the years. American Leopards, American LeClercs, American Challengers, American Chieftans, American Marders, American Gepards, American Typhoons, American Mirages, American Rafales...

Nice strawman, Brad. No one said Europe can't build a tank. The point is that when European nations buy weapons, they actively include American systems (like the F-35) in their budgets. When the US buys weapons, they actively blocks European imports to protect domestic jobs.

Now that Europe is being urged to spend 5 percent of their GDP on defense, and Europe tries to employ America's playbook, the American government is crying foul.

Too bad for them.

 

[Altair]

A farewell to (American) arms: Europe is pushing the U.S. out of its military-industrial complex

A quiet revolution is underway in Europe: import substitution in the defense sector. The EU intends to free itself from American technology so it can develop…

theins.press

A quiet revolution is underway in Europe: import substitution in the defense sector. The EU intends to free itself from American technology so it can develop and sell weapons without having to seek Washington's approval. The shift has been driven by growing disagreements with the U.S. over a range of issues — aid to Ukraine, trade tariffs, and repeated American threats to withdraw from NATO. As a result, Europe has concluded that it must invest in its own security and strategic autonomy. But money alone will not be enough. The continent also needs to bring order to its fragmented defense industry, and that will not be easy given the wide range of weapons systems in use by its various national armies and the risk that populist politicians pose to long-term planning. Meanwhile, Poland and the Baltic states have demonstrated little faith in Europe's defense-industrial independence and continue to buy American weapons. However, Brussels' new rules will require them to give preference to European manufacturers.​

I imagine this process will only accelerate under the new "loyalty questionnaire" pressure coming from Washington.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Nice strawman, Brad. No one said Europe can't build a tank. The point is that when European nations buy weapons, they actively include American systems (like the F-35) in their budgets. When the US buys weapons, they actively blocks European imports to protect domestic jobs.

Sure. Imagine the long list of European countries that never play politics to favour their own defence industries.

 

[Altair]

Sure. Imagine the long list of European countries that never play politics to favour their own defence industries.

You're right, but never to the scale the American government has.

And now that Europe is putting in restrictions, Washington is throwing a fit.

I know you love your stars and stripes but even you can see through your own naked biases enough to see the blatant hypocrisy at play here.

 

[Brad Sallows]

You're right, but never to the scale the American government has.

Perhaps. But protectionism is protectionism, even with good reasons/excuses (eg. protect domestic industries). Doesn't matter whether it's defence, auto manufacturing, or dairy.

I know you love your stars and stripes but even you can see through your own naked biases enough to see the blatant hypocrisy at play here.

I doubt my emotions are as intense as you seem to think. I appreciate having the USA as neighbours rather than any other country, and I am annoyed but not upset by most of what Trump does. I conclude everyone should just muddle through and repair the relationships on the other side, not throw fits and tear down more than is already being torn down.

 

[daftandbarmy]

US out of Europe?

The Washington Treaty enters the chat...

NATO Defends America​

The framers of the Washington Treaty established NATO in April 1949 as a multi-national commitment to collective defense. Their premise was clear: after the horrific destruction of World War II, tying Europe to North America in a security pact would not only prevent another war in Europe, it would also provide a frontline defense for the United States. That tried and tested formula remains valid to this day.

NATO Defends America

At this pivotal juncture, as the NATO alliance comes under scrutiny, it is vital to underscore its core principles.

cepa.org

 

[Good2Golf]

US out of Europe?

The Washington Treaty enters the chat...

NATO Defends America​

The framers of the Washington Treaty established NATO in April 1949 as a multi-national commitment to collective defense. Their premise was clear: after the horrific destruction of World War II, tying Europe to North America in a security pact would not only prevent another war in Europe, it would also provide a frontline defense for the United States. That tried and tested formula remains valid to this day.

NATO Defends America

At this pivotal juncture, as the NATO alliance comes under scrutiny, it is vital to underscore its core principles.

cepa.org

A “money quote” (amongst a few) from the article, notes what many here (and elsewhere) have said as a critically thinking alternative to the U.S. self-view of a benevolent, near selfless military presence in Europe…

…American forces are deployed in Europe not as an act of altruism but in order to protect U.S. interests within and beyond Europe and to detect, deter, and defeat adversaries before they feel emboldened to strike against the U.S. homeland...

 

[Brad Sallows]

NATO did not really emerge to generally prevent another war in Europe let alone to protect US interests; it emerged specifically to contain the USSR and deter/prevent any invasion initiated by the USSR. That is the premise from which everything else followed.

Not only has the original containment succeeded, not only has almost all of the sovereignty of the pre-WW II nations occupied by the USSR been restored, but parts of the USSR have gained sovereignty and the new containment line is mostly part of the NATO family.

European NATO has enough potential to contain Russia, provided European NATO can refrain from bickering too much among themselves and can find it in themselves to spend the money. I suspect the unspoken fear among some of those who claim to fret about US behaviour in the alliance is that they don't believe European NATO can hang together once the old European powers (primarily France and Germany) essentially replace the US as the top tier and revert to old habits at the tables of NATO and the EU.

If this were some kind of world-spanning board game, I'd love to see the look on the Russian and Chinese players faces when a whole bunch of new cardboard counters are spawned in Europe and all the US ones redeploy to Asian-facing locations.