22 Jul 11: Explosion near Norwegian PM's office

[canada94]

It has been done.

But our social conditioning as sheep claims many victims.  Hence the men at the Polytechnique abandonned the women to Marc Lepine.

Exactly. My point proven. A whole needle in a hay stack.

 

[aesop081]

Here's another one for you then :

http://www.isaf.nato.int/article/isaf-releases/citizens-fight-back-against-insurgent-attack-at-mosque.html

 

[VIChris]

Here's another one for you then :

http://www.isaf.nato.int/article/isaf-releases/citizens-fight-back-against-insurgent-attack-at-mosque.html

Can we really compare a mix of citizens from a long term war torn country to a bunch of kids from a generally peaceful country at a summer camp?

 

[canada94]

Here's another one for you then :

http://www.isaf.nato.int/article/isaf-releases/citizens-fight-back-against-insurgent-attack-at-mosque.html

Where you at any of these situations? Did you see the actual perp's? Did you see their capabilities? Did you fight back? I don't see how pointing random moments of "heroism" proves these KIDS are in the wrong for not fighting back. Which is what you are making it seem. When I was 8 years old, I was outside my school in Belldune, NB when my mom an RCMP officer was approached with a man wielding an axe, no one "jumped" to save the day as everyone was scared for their life, they ran. Expecting anyone to do differently is insane and need's to realize that the average citizen doesn't "fight back" against nut jobs. My mom used her training and subdued the man. What I am trying to say is that you can't expect an average person to simply "fight back" .. especially without adequate equipment. These young men and women where up against a man much larger then the average frame, and also armed to the teeth. Expecting anyone to "save the day" is just ignorant.

I am sure we can agree this is a sad incident. I don't want to argue about something like this, and the reason being is because, it is much easier said then done, to repel force.

- Mike

 

[Infanteer]

Or here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting

or here:

http://gunsafe.org/The%20Armed%20Citizen/Gun-shop%20employee.htm

or here:

http://www2.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=e5fa0ec3-1ceb-4033-9a88-198008626097

Needless to say, there are plenty of examples of people opting for fight rather than flight.  Perhaps we need to look at why they did this?  Gun control or more surveillance isn't going to prevent a massacre, so we need to look at what will.

 

[canada94]

Or here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting

or here:

http://gunsafe.org/The%20Armed%20Citizen/Gun-shop%20employee.htm

or here:

http://www2.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=e5fa0ec3-1ceb-4033-9a88-198008626097

Needless to say, there are plenty of examples of people opting for fight rather than flight.  Perhaps we need to look at why they did this?  Gun control or more surveillance isn't going to prevent a massacre, so we need to look at what will.

Infanteer..

This is exactly what I have been saying. The first 2 stories had men that had equipment to easily kill the perp. I can 100% agree with you. If someone had a gun on the Island I am sure they would have attempted to kill the man.

Also remember however he was wearing a police uniform.

 

[Infanteer]

This is exactly what I have been saying. The first 2 stories had men that had equipment to easily kill the perp. I can 100% agree with you. If someone had a gun on the Island I am sure they would have attempted to kill the man.

....bingo.  Thanks for bringing it up.  One teacher with a CCW can prevent a school/camp shooting from becoming a massacre.

Also remember however he was wearing a police uniform.

That's a red herring that goes out the window as soon as he starts pumping rounds into the crowd.  The people in the stories linked above were "average citizens" until they started murdering people in public.

 

[canada94]

....bingo.  Thanks for bringing it up.  One teacher with a CCW can prevent a school/camp shooting from becoming a massacre.

That's a red herring that goes out the window as soon as he starts pumping rounds into the crowd.  The people in the stories linked above were "average citizens" until they started murdering people in public.

Yes. Way to twist my words.


I am not going to say anything anymore other then, whoever say's the teenagers should have fought back is saying something much easier;

Said then done.

 

[vonGarvin]

If I may interject, we don't know, but someone may have tried, but failed, to disarm this guy.  Maybe we just don't know because all the witnesses are now dead (except the shooter, of course).


But maybe Grossman has a point in that the majority of us are "sheep" and only a slim minority are "sheepdogs" or "wolves"?

 

[Jarnhamar]

I sincerely hope the planners and people who executed this plan are hunted down and brought to justice. No doubt we will show them more mercy than they showed their victims.

:rage:

When someone steals your car they should be brought to justice.
These monsters should just be hunted down. I don't think we should afford them the same rights we do to other human beings.

 

[PMedMoe]

Not to detract from the thread topic, but check out the comment attached to this news story:

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2011/07/official-youth-camp-shooter-norweigian/40318/

Wow......just.....wow......

 

[Journeyman]

Wow......just.....wow......

I just had to hit <Like> at the bottom of the screen, but it doesn't then say how many others thought it was an insightful comment.  ;D

 

[Brad Sallows]

Everywhere I read people asking what the teenagers should have done.  I can't think of anything teenagers might reasonably be expected to do in practical terms except obey authority and/or flee, but I can conceive of what adult supervisors might do.  But the presence and number of adults seems to an unreported unknown.

From one of the linked articles: "...police inspector Bjoerne Erik Sem-Jacobsen told Reuters. "We don't know how many people were on the island, therefore we have to search further.""

They can't verify attendance?

This all strikes me as odd.

 

[The Bread Guy]

They can't verify attendance?

This all strikes me as odd.

Keep in mind this was apparently a teenage camping trip arranged by the ruling Labour party's youth wing - we don't know how firm or fluid the invite list was.

Not to detract from the thread topic, but check out the comment attached to this news story:
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2011/07/official-youth-camp-shooter-norweigian/40318/
Wow......just.....wow......

Wonder how "moderated" the comments are?

Meanwhile, here's a timeline from the Associated Press:

—3:26 p.m.: A car bomb explodes outside the prime minister's office in central Oslo.

—Around 4:50 p.m.: Vacationers at a campground begin to hear shooting across the lake on Utoya, an island where the youth wing of the Labor Party is being held.

—5:26 p.m.: Police in Buskerud receive call about shooting on Utoya.

—5:30 p.m.: Buskerud police alert Oslo, request SWAT team.

—5:38 p.m.: SWAT team is dispatched from Oslo. It drives, deciding that starting a police helicopter would take longer.

—By 6 p.m.: The team arrives at the lake, but it struggles to find a boat to cross over.

—6:25 p.m.: The SWAT team arrives on the island.

—6:27 p.m.: Suspect puts down weapons and surrenders to police.

I know we rarely see/hear everything through media accounts, but a police tactical team based in a port city that heads to a call on an island without its own boat?

Edited to add part in orange above.

 

[JesseWZ]

Also, 36 minutes between people hearing shooting and the police being notified? I wonder if there is a lot of hunting/ranges in the area for it to be dismissed like that.

 

[the 48th regulator]

If I may interject, we don't know, but someone may have tried, but failed, to disarm this guy.  Maybe we just don't know because all the witnesses are now dead (except the shooter, of course).


But maybe Grossman has a point in that the majority of us are "sheep" and only a slim minority are "sheepdogs" or "wolves"?

Grossman also talks about this exact situation.  He goes into details about the Beslan School massacre, and the Columbine massacre.  We have all been conditioned to save ourselves from a fire, however in North America alone, we have lost more students to Gunfire, than an actual fire.

He actually professes that we should all be trained what to do in these types of situations, so that we can minimize the threat, and casualties.

dileas

tess

 

[Old Sweat]

Also, 36 minutes between people hearing shooting and the police being notified? I wonder if there is a lot of hunting/ranges in the area for it to be dismissed like that.

I would wonder if there is a 911 system in place? There apparently were lots of cell phones and other devices on the island, as there were a number of calls and texts to parents, etc.

 

[muskrat89]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,776287,00.html

But Marcel did. "I just acted," he says. He saw more and more people jumping into the water from the rocks on the shore and looked through a telescope at the island. Suddenly, he saw the attacker, squatting on a rock with his weapon raised. Eyewitnesses later said that he also shot at those who had already managed to jump into the water.

"There were people swimming everywhere in the water," Marcel says. "I threw them lifejackets and pulled those into the boat who were having the most trouble. Everyone was screaming, but they were also helping each other." They screamed, they cried, but they also hugged each other for courage. "It was unbelievable to see how strong they were," Marcel says.

The 32-year-old took his boat out into the water again and again, collecting more people and bringing them back to the jetty. There, additional helpers were waiting, and several other campers with their boats were also pulling teenagers out of the water. Marcel guesses that he alone was able to bring 20 of them to the shore, he doesn't know exactly how many anymore.

'Goes Without Saying'

Some of the teenagers seemed not to want to be saved by the campers from the other shore. They screamed "don't come too close" or "do you want to kill us?" The reason only came to light the next day. "The attacker was so cynical that he called out to the young people and promised that he would save them," a Norwegian man, who had likewise pulled people out of the water, says.

Psychologists who arrived at the campground after the massacre ended expressed amazement at how well organized the campers were. When the shooting started, many of them put their small children in their cars so that they wouldn't realize what was going on. One man drove many of the freezing teenagers to the campground office to warm up.


In total, the campers at Utvika managed to pull 150 people out of the water. "Still, many of them feel guilty," says psychiatrist Kirsti Oscarson. "The think only of the people they had to leave behind because they didn't fit in the boat and not about the ones whose lives they saved." Her job now is to ensure them that their thoughts in such a situation are completely normal, Oscarson says.

 

[mariomike]

BBC
"Mr Sponheim confirmed that the maximum time Mr Breivik could face in prison under Norwegian law is 21 years.":
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14266815

Edit to add.

Time July, 2010
"Sentenced to Serving the Good Life in Norway: Inside the world's most humane prison":
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2000920,00.html


"Halden, the newest high-security prison in Norway, aims to rehabilitate criminals with comfortable and thoroughly modern facilities. From en-suite bathrooms to a professional recording studio, it's a gentler kind of justice":
http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1989083,00.html

 

[SoldierInAYear]

Also, 36 minutes between people hearing shooting and the police being notified? I wonder if there is a lot of hunting/ranges in the area for it to be dismissed like that.

Apprently they thought it was games on the island, I'll try to find the source for you.