260th Battalion

[Dennis Ruhl]

http://www.army.gc.ca/lfwa/backgrounder_colonel_in_chief.asp

The PPCLI was awarded the Battle Honour, Siberia 1918-1919 in recognition of the deeds and sacrifices of the 260th Battalion (Canadian Rifles), a unit that served as part of the Canadian Expeditionary Force sent to Siberia in 1918. This unit's history and accomplishments are perpetuated by the PPCLI because many of the soldiers who served with this unit served with the Regiment during World War I.

How true is this, ie. how many soldiers from the PPCLI would have served in the 260th?  The CO was Boer War veteran LCol Fred Jamieson who had previously commanded the 19th Alberta Dragoons pre-war and in France and the men were the latest batch of conscripts from across Canada.  Some NCOs and officers normally returned from France to train new units but would there have been a preponderance of PPCLI?

 

[exspy]

Dennis,

I don't know where that site is getting its information.  According to 'The Regiment and Corps of The Canadian Army' (1965) and 'DUCIMUS The Regiments and Corps of the Canadian Infantry' (1992), the PPCLI does not have the battle honour 'Siberia 1918-19'.  Neither does The Loyal Edmonton Regiment (4 PPCLI).

Further, according to 'A Call to Arms' (1999) neither of the infantry battalions of the CSEF are perpetuated by any regiment.  Neither is there any indication that the 260th Battalion had (Canadian Rifles) in its title.  Finally, the PPCLI Depot was located in Toronto while the two battalions for Siberia were organized in Victoria.

So no, there is no connection between the 260th Battalion and the PPCLI.

Cheers,
Dan.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

According to A-AD-267-000/AF-003, Army Lineage,  Volume 3: Combat Arms Regiments,  Annex 1B - Perpetuations

260th Battalion (Canadian Rifles) Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry NDHQ 1065-1 (DHH Her Offr), 13 Nov 97/QGDN 1065-1 DHP O patrimoine), 13 nov 98

EDITED TO ADD

Correct title of Publication.

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

So no, there is no connection between the 260th Battalion and the PPCLI.

Cheers,
Dan.

That's what I was wondering.  The 12e RBC also shows "Siberia, 1918-19".  Tthey are descended from the Three Rivers Regiment which would have no connection on face value.

 

[George Wallace]

Yes, The 12e RBC also shows "Siberia, 1918-19".  You are looking at Unit Colours/Guidons that perpetuate other units.  Yes, the 12e RBC are less than 70 years old (a round number), but like the Canadian Airborne Regiment, their Guidon carries the Battle Honours of the units that they perpetuate.  Just as the JTF2 has Colours and perpetuated previous units. 

So?  What is your point?

 

[Blackadder1916]

12e Régiment Blindé du Canada perpetuates the 178th Bn and from them have "Amiens" as a battle honour.  I don't know where their "Siberia" comes from.  The only units that would have been eligible to receive that battle honour in addition to the 259th and 260th were “B” Squadron H.C.N.N.N.A. (Cavalry) which was probably the title used by the RNWMP (RCMP) unit and possibly the 20th Machine Gun Company.  All the rest were service units or those that had the honour "UBIQUE".


According to regiments.org (which was usually reliable when it was active)

http://web.archive.org/web/20070101012411/www.regiments.org/regiments/na-canada/warformed/inf-cef/260bn.htm

1918.11.01 260th Battalion formed for the Canadian Siberia Expeditionary Force
1920.11.15 disbanded; perpetuated ca. 2000 by Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry

http://web.archive.org/web/20061230005714/www.regiments.org/regiments/na-canada/warformed/inf-cef/259bn.htm

1918.11.01 259th Battalion formed for the Canadian Siberia Expeditionary Force
1920.11.15 disbanded; perpetuated ca. 2000 by The Royal Canadian Regiment

Since I don't have access to "A-AD-267-000/AF-003, Volume 3" perhaps someone (NFLD Sapper?) could confirm if the 259th Bn was (actually) similarly perpetuated by The RCR.  It would be interesting to see if the dates of the DHH authority coincide.  That would make it seem more like the package that I assume it could be.  Though not all CEF infantry battalions were perpetuated, (it is my impression that) all (or mostly all) that had served at the front and received battle honours were.  Probably two notable exceptions were the 259th and 260th, but they were not "CEF" but "CSEF".  It is conceiveable that someone finally woke up (7+ decades later) and realized that perpetuation of these two units was something that had fallen through the cracks - plus the unique battle honour "Siberia 1918-1919" was not carried elsewhere in the army (only the RCMP).  As the battles over which militia regiments perpetuated which war service battalions had long ago ceased (along with anyone who served in them), it is possible the solution was in continuing the line in two regular force regiments.  So following it geographically, the 260th, which was to be predominently raised with men from the west is continued by the PPCLI and the 259th (which I assume was to be an 'eastern' battalion) by The RCR.

While the manning of the force for Siberia was originally intended to be volunteers, such recruiting wasn't as successful as hoped so persons subject to the Military Service Act (conscripts) were taken.  There must have been a leavening of trained and experienced soldiers but it seems very coincidental that a great number of PPCLI and RCR would be in those battalions, but you never know - perhaps there was.

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

Yes, The 12e RBC also shows "Siberia, 1918-19".  You are looking at Unit Colours/Guidons that perpetuate other units.  Yes, the 12e RBC are less than 70 years old (a round number), but like the Canadian Airborne Regiment, their Guidon carries the Battle Honours of the units that they perpetuate.  Just as the JTF2 has Colours and perpetuated previous units. 

So?  What is your point?

Not important but the 12e RBC direct lineage starts in 1871, I believe.  The Canadian Airborne Regiment perpetuated the 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion and the First Special Service Force administratively titled the 2nd Canadian Parachute Battalion.  The connection was pretty positive and well received by veterans almost all of whom were living.

Point?  A military website says that many PPCLI were in the 260th and it seems unlikely to me.

 

[George Wallace]

Just curious, but where did the "2nd Parachute Battalion" come from?  I have never heard of this before, and I used to work in the Canadian Airborne Forces Museum.

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

Just curious, but where did the "2nd Parachute Battalion" come from?  I have never heard of this before, and I used to work in the Canadian Airborne Forces Museum.

http://www.dnd.ca/somalia/vol1/v1c9e.htm

The 2nd Canadian Parachute Battalion, formed on July 10, 1943 (and renamed the First Canadian Special Service Battalion in 1943)

I thought it was an administrative title but it looks like it was the original title.

I also believe it was formed July 10, 1942 not 1943 as the website states.  The name changed 25MAY1943 per "Ducimus, The Regiments of the Canadian Infantry" by Michael Mitchell.

 

[exspy]

Gentlemen,

Well if the battle honour 'Siberia 1918-19' has been awarded to The RCR, no one has mentioned it to The Regiment (yes, THE Regiment).  A check of the regimental web site does not show this battle honour, nor does the latest issue of the regimental journal, PRO PATRIA.

On the other hand the PPCLI web site does show 'Siberia 1918-19' and the perpetuation of the 260th Battalion, CSEF.

There must have been a press release when these new battle honours were awarded, and somewhere (more than likely at DHH) a paper trail explaining who, what, where and why.

Rather than being awarded on account of number of personnel, it looks like they were awarded for the sake of perpetuation.  There does not seem to be any rhyme or reason for the decision of to whom to award the honours other than having them go to regular force units.

Definitely more investigation is required.  Good pick Dennis.

Cheers,
Dan.

 

[exspy]

Gentlemen,

I just found this quote on the CEF Study Group site from Mike, the Regimental Rogue himself.  It's from January of 2007.

Just to clarify, The RCR did not accept the offer of the Battle Honour "Siberia 1918-19".

So, The RCR does not have the battle honour 'Siberia 1918-19'.  I'm still checking for the other regiments mentioned.

Cheers,
Dan.

ADDENDUM

The following was located on the DHH web site under lineages.

259th Battalion (Canadian Rifles)  12e Régiment blindé du Canada NDHQ 1065-1 DHH Her Offr), 23 Jun 98/97/QGDN 1065-1 (DHP O patrimoine), 23 juin 98
260th Battalion (Canadian Rifles) Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry NDHQ 1065-1 (DHH Her Offr), 13 Nov 97/QGDN 1065-1 DHP O patrimoine), 13 nov 98

Haven't found the reasoning behind the awarding yet.  Still looking.

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

The opinion part.

The historical people at DND have been uniformly chintzy with honours and perpetuations.  It seems out of character for them to have shopped these battalions around.

That said, as long as the receiving regiments pay proper respect to their responsibilty that comes with adding these battalions to their histories it is probably not a bad thing.

The 259th and 260th didn't have a firm geographic base making them a natural for perpetuation by a reserve regiment.  The 12e RBC does seem an odd choice because its roots are in the Three Rivers Regiment and I believe the troops of the 259th were mostly from London, Kingston, Montreal, and Quebec. 

The battle honour "Siberia, 1918-19" itself is an odd one because it has to one of very few being awarded without a shot having been fired by either battalion.  There are other examples where Canadian troops were on active service in a war zone and received no battle honour.  The Aleutians, 1943 and France, 1940 are two that come to mind.

 

[AJFitzpatrick]

It is not even clear in Historical Section report 83 how much of either battalion even made it to Siberia. Not one mention of the 259th Battalion in that report.
Authorized force was;
“B” Squadron H.C.N.N.N.A. (Cavalry)
85th Battery C.F.A.
16th Field Company C.E.
6th Signal Company
260th Infantry Battalion
20th Machine Gun Company
No. 1 Company Divisional Train
16th Field Ambulance
No. 11 Stationary Hospital
No. 9 Ordnance Detachment

The report does mention 1100 in Siberia and an additional 2700 underway

 

[Michael OLeary]

The RCR was offered the battle honour Siberia in the 1990s.  It was refused as the described "lineage" was too tenuous for the Regiment's liking.

The RCR does not carry the battle honour Siberia.

 

[Blackadder1916]

The RCR was offered the battle honour Siberia in the 1990s.  It was refused as the described "lineage" was too tenuous for the Regiment's liking.

Was The RCR offered the 259th Battalion lineage first (before the 12e RBC)?  Do you have any background on the why/how of the belated perpetuation of these two battalions?

 

[Michael OLeary]

DHH was trying to ressurrect various perpetuated lineages to preserve battle honours that were either very lightly represented among existing Corps or which had disappeared. I don't have a specific reference, just a memory of speaking about the offer of the Siberian battle honour with the Regimental Colonel at the time (early 1990s).

 

[Michael OLeary]

To add to this topic, I found the following on perpetuation of the 259th and 260th Battalions of the CSEF:

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/his/ol-lo/vol-tom-3/par1/aafer-rbagc-ann-1b-eng.asp

259th Battalion (Canadian Rifles); perpetuated by 12e Régiment blindé du Canada
NDHQ 1065-1 DHH Her Offr), 23 Jun 98/97/QGDN 1065-1 (DHP O patrimoine), 23 juin 98

260th Battalion (Canadian Rifles); perpetuated by Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
NDHQ 1065-1 (DHH Her Offr), 13 Nov 97/QGDN 1065-1 DHP O patrimoine), 13 nov 98