"3 Block War" Training Center?
- Thread starter Chags
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I reread the thread and figured I'd answer a few more questions..
The cave system (which should have low crawl spaces and larger "rooms") will be in the "hilly" area around Battle River.. right now they're having planning issues with the "enclosed spaces" and the "dangers" that come with it.. give me a break!
The villages that are being built prior to Apr 06 (There will be much more in the near future), will have some permanent structures (ie the farm compound will have a low wall surrounding it, and a few buildings within the wall.. like one would find around the outskirts of Kabul..) but depending on the mission/task, villages can be improved and increased in size. We'll have a number of moveable objects (including 100s of sea cans with doors and and windows cut out) to train up to TF size.
There will be emphasis placed on urban ops, ambushes, convoy escort drills. Thats right, even your rear echelon will be part of the ex. Your HLVW FAR will be fulled instrumented, so you better have security out during the rolling replens.. Of course, these are the threats that we could face on our present or near future deployments.. those will change, and we will change with them.. We now have a cell that coords with the PSTC in Kingston. Any AAR from an UNMO returning from tour will be forwarded to us. (ie Darfur)
This APS we will be posting a Maj to Ft Hood (or Irwin.. I forget), but that will give us the coordination between us and JRTC and NTC. Our Commander and a few others have been down to both TC's a few times and have learned quite a bit.. on a much larger scale of course..
As for OPFOR positions, the big push for permanent members will be APS 06 and 07. The duration of contracts to reservists has yet to be decided.. could be 6, 8 or 12 month.. but basically every position with the coy gr besides the very-key positions will be available.. I think that will be a great job..
Lastly, the question was asked about airborne, airmobile etc, operations. Not much talk about airborne, but the airforce will play with us.. Gen Hillier is pushing the combined CF thing, so we can expect lots of joint operations.. more to fol on that
The cave system (which should have low crawl spaces and larger "rooms") will be in the "hilly" area around Battle River.. right now they're having planning issues with the "enclosed spaces" and the "dangers" that come with it.. give me a break!
The villages that are being built prior to Apr 06 (There will be much more in the near future), will have some permanent structures (ie the farm compound will have a low wall surrounding it, and a few buildings within the wall.. like one would find around the outskirts of Kabul..) but depending on the mission/task, villages can be improved and increased in size. We'll have a number of moveable objects (including 100s of sea cans with doors and and windows cut out) to train up to TF size.
There will be emphasis placed on urban ops, ambushes, convoy escort drills. Thats right, even your rear echelon will be part of the ex. Your HLVW FAR will be fulled instrumented, so you better have security out during the rolling replens.. Of course, these are the threats that we could face on our present or near future deployments.. those will change, and we will change with them.. We now have a cell that coords with the PSTC in Kingston. Any AAR from an UNMO returning from tour will be forwarded to us. (ie Darfur)
This APS we will be posting a Maj to Ft Hood (or Irwin.. I forget), but that will give us the coordination between us and JRTC and NTC. Our Commander and a few others have been down to both TC's a few times and have learned quite a bit.. on a much larger scale of course..
As for OPFOR positions, the big push for permanent members will be APS 06 and 07. The duration of contracts to reservists has yet to be decided.. could be 6, 8 or 12 month.. but basically every position with the coy gr besides the very-key positions will be available.. I think that will be a great job..
Lastly, the question was asked about airborne, airmobile etc, operations. Not much talk about airborne, but the airforce will play with us.. Gen Hillier is pushing the combined CF thing, so we can expect lots of joint operations.. more to fol on that
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Chags said:
Awesome, I had the opportunity to be the OPFOR Pl Comd in Gagetown last summer for ATC INF (Res Dismounted Coy Comd Crse), the blue force was O Coy, 3 RCR. It was an excellent job, and I learned a ton about light infantry operations in close terrain, would do it again in a second.
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CMTC sounds like the army is taking training in the right direction.
My only beef with CMTC is that they are stripping away vehicles/equipment from field force units to kit it out. The Whole Fleet (mis)Management is wrong and the army is going to pay for this in the long run if we don't sort it out. The army needs to spend the money to buy CMTC it's own kit- perhaps a good wish list for that $13 billion we are getting in the next 5 years! This is creating a huge problem in the mech battalions right now and is actually causing skill fade. Battalions still need to do collective training annually vice once every 2-3 years.
The advantage obviously is that CMTC will have the full support staff there and a means to actually "play war" with WES. I am a big fan of CMTC.....let's hope it works! Glad to hear that there is a sizable urban ops site. Also good to hear that it will not solely be mech focused.
Who is manning all of this anyways? We have trouble manning the schools as it is right now.........I assume new PYs have been added to fill this out?
My only beef with CMTC is that they are stripping away vehicles/equipment from field force units to kit it out. The Whole Fleet (mis)Management is wrong and the army is going to pay for this in the long run if we don't sort it out. The army needs to spend the money to buy CMTC it's own kit- perhaps a good wish list for that $13 billion we are getting in the next 5 years! This is creating a huge problem in the mech battalions right now and is actually causing skill fade. Battalions still need to do collective training annually vice once every 2-3 years.
The advantage obviously is that CMTC will have the full support staff there and a means to actually "play war" with WES. I am a big fan of CMTC.....let's hope it works! Glad to hear that there is a sizable urban ops site. Also good to hear that it will not solely be mech focused.
Who is manning all of this anyways? We have trouble manning the schools as it is right now.........I assume new PYs have been added to fill this out?
" I fully agree on the "cold war" mentality/relevance of CMTC as it appears to be set up (from firends posted there)"
The big fear is not that we will NOT do the non-cold war stuff, but that we, as an institution, will become so enamoured and gee-wilikers about this sexy new stuff that our Army will lose the institutional ability to study, understand, practice at a unit level (to train future Div Comds) and mobilize to fight a "Heavy Metal War on the Central Front" type of conflict.
The experience we now rely on to do that has seriously degraded since we stopped manoeuvring with the adult armies in Germany.
Bear in mind, SAT 1 may have reminded a lot of folks about just how loud the "loud Block" of the three block war is, and how hard it is to blow sunshine up the butts of your men when they all have red lights flashing on their harnesses. If you extrapolate the SAT 1 attacking company casualties to the scale of our formations during WW1 and WW2, our SAT casualty rates may well rival those of Hill 70 or Ortona.
Conclusion:
1. The "loud" Block kills people, who may thus lose confidence in their leaders if left alive with a flashing red light on their chests.
2. This embarrasses their leaders, who want to avoid that.
3. The quieter blocks won't kill them as fast.
They are dead wrong, of course, about number three. if you can't dance with the best on the loud block, you can very easily get your asses handed to you on a plate on the "gentler" blocks.
The RPGs don't fly any slower in the quieter blocks, and the enemy brains are the same size.
This is becoming a VERY interesting place to be posted. SAT 2 will be in July.
Check out the CMTC website.
As for the name-game, remember that every generation invents it's own terminology. No big deal. Just look at doctrine as the tool that - when mastered - allows you to kick more ass faster than before.
Tom
The big fear is not that we will NOT do the non-cold war stuff, but that we, as an institution, will become so enamoured and gee-wilikers about this sexy new stuff that our Army will lose the institutional ability to study, understand, practice at a unit level (to train future Div Comds) and mobilize to fight a "Heavy Metal War on the Central Front" type of conflict.
The experience we now rely on to do that has seriously degraded since we stopped manoeuvring with the adult armies in Germany.
Bear in mind, SAT 1 may have reminded a lot of folks about just how loud the "loud Block" of the three block war is, and how hard it is to blow sunshine up the butts of your men when they all have red lights flashing on their harnesses. If you extrapolate the SAT 1 attacking company casualties to the scale of our formations during WW1 and WW2, our SAT casualty rates may well rival those of Hill 70 or Ortona.
Conclusion:
1. The "loud" Block kills people, who may thus lose confidence in their leaders if left alive with a flashing red light on their chests.
2. This embarrasses their leaders, who want to avoid that.
3. The quieter blocks won't kill them as fast.
They are dead wrong, of course, about number three. if you can't dance with the best on the loud block, you can very easily get your asses handed to you on a plate on the "gentler" blocks.
The RPGs don't fly any slower in the quieter blocks, and the enemy brains are the same size.
This is becoming a VERY interesting place to be posted. SAT 2 will be in July.
Check out the CMTC website.
As for the name-game, remember that every generation invents it's own terminology. No big deal. Just look at doctrine as the tool that - when mastered - allows you to kick more ass faster than before.
Tom
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Is it really necessary to train Div Commanders in a military that can barely raise two Brigades?
Would those resources not be better used providing for sufficient Bn and lower trg?
As I've stated before - the "sexy new stuff" is here to stay. We wont be fighting any massive mechanised land battles in terrain such as Wx in my lifetime!
Would those resources not be better used providing for sufficient Bn and lower trg?
As I've stated before - the "sexy new stuff" is here to stay. We wont be fighting any massive mechanised land battles in terrain such as Wx in my lifetime!
We run into the realm of "Least Likely/Most Costly" scenarios. The main reason we have a reserve force structured as it presently is structured is for a basis of national mobilization in case of a emergency. Chance of that happening? Remote. But, enough not to permanently cripple the structure more than we have allready crippled it. Human's have been very unreliable predictors of where and how the next war will be fought, unless they happen to be planning on starting it.
Col English has written on how a lack of initial success in WW2 as well as casualties inordinately high to the accomplishment was a partial result of the failure of the Cdn Army to retain it's proffessional focus on training future operational commanders between WW1 and WW2. This was not entirely the fault of the Army, as WW1 was known as "the war to end all wars", and the govt starved it for funds at one point. But he does make a good case of those funds the Army did get being squanderred on trinkets and baubles (useless policies) that had no positive effect on developing new generations of field commanders, and thus resulting in a steep and blody learning curve.
So, yes, we could use the money to better train section commanders, but an inadequately trained section commander's mistake probably won't cost 1000 Canadian lives in the future. A badly trained General's mistake might. We need some balance.
Taxpayers pay us to train to win the first battle of the next war, not to flip burgers at McDonalds for a photo op. Being Cdn taxpayers, they just happen to be to stupid to know this.
It is my enduring priviledge to serve them.
Col English has written on how a lack of initial success in WW2 as well as casualties inordinately high to the accomplishment was a partial result of the failure of the Cdn Army to retain it's proffessional focus on training future operational commanders between WW1 and WW2. This was not entirely the fault of the Army, as WW1 was known as "the war to end all wars", and the govt starved it for funds at one point. But he does make a good case of those funds the Army did get being squanderred on trinkets and baubles (useless policies) that had no positive effect on developing new generations of field commanders, and thus resulting in a steep and blody learning curve.
So, yes, we could use the money to better train section commanders, but an inadequately trained section commander's mistake probably won't cost 1000 Canadian lives in the future. A badly trained General's mistake might. We need some balance.
Taxpayers pay us to train to win the first battle of the next war, not to flip burgers at McDonalds for a photo op. Being Cdn taxpayers, they just happen to be to stupid to know this.
It is my enduring priviledge to serve them.
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I think BN is the practical extent of Canadian capability...
Unfortunate but given our kit - manning and lack of airlift we are a BN based Btl Gp max country.
I woudl rather have those BN units be excellent so the BN commanders can extrapolate from that experience - than have a half assed Canadianized Brigade or Div ex.
I remember RV92 and woudl love to get back that way - but we dont have the real estate to accomodate a Div Ex with our current capabilties.
Unfortunate but given our kit - manning and lack of airlift we are a BN based Btl Gp max country.
I woudl rather have those BN units be excellent so the BN commanders can extrapolate from that experience - than have a half assed Canadianized Brigade or Div ex.
I remember RV92 and woudl love to get back that way - but we dont have the real estate to accomodate a Div Ex with our current capabilties.
My quote was "practice at unit level (to train future Div Comds)" meaning that I think Btl Gp is as high as we will get at CMTC, and as long as some of it is high intensity ops, and all of it is balls to the wall, whatever "block" they happen to be fighting in, it will have to do. The higher ups can then staff college/JCATS/whatever themselves to their heart's content.
As far as real estate goes, we have Trg Area coming out of our butts. We just happen to be spoiled. Try trg in Hohenfels or Grafenwohr with the trg area full of more NATO than we have soldiers. We have dropped the ball on our trg areas, treating them as wildlife refuges rather than combat mnvr theme parks.
Tom
As far as real estate goes, we have Trg Area coming out of our butts. We just happen to be spoiled. Try trg in Hohenfels or Grafenwohr with the trg area full of more NATO than we have soldiers. We have dropped the ball on our trg areas, treating them as wildlife refuges rather than combat mnvr theme parks.
Tom
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Chags,
Excellent to hear you are having fun in "sunny" Wainwright. Mark Squires got promoted to Sgt last week. God protect us from the squirrel.
I finally glad to see the army is broadening their horizens and getting into some proper scenarios. CMTC is going to be the place to be in the coming years. Glad to hear we'll be able to do the whole gambit of exercises from general warfighting to unconventional warfare. It is about time.......we need improvise, adapt and overcome or else we will die.
Pro Patria
Greg
Excellent to hear you are having fun in "sunny" Wainwright. Mark Squires got promoted to Sgt last week. God protect us from the squirrel.
I finally glad to see the army is broadening their horizens and getting into some proper scenarios. CMTC is going to be the place to be in the coming years. Glad to hear we'll be able to do the whole gambit of exercises from general warfighting to unconventional warfare. It is about time.......we need improvise, adapt and overcome or else we will die.
Pro Patria Greg
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