3 VP CO & RSM relieved of duty

[PuckChaser]

And I also used DAOD 5019.

Rory’s point is that the CAF is using it instead of discipline.

My counter to Rory is that since Summary Trials were turned into Summary Hearings, 5019 is about the only useful tool left for COs.

And counter to his point (since, undoubtedly, all of his clients are innocent) Remedial Measures are about correcting behaviour. All of the ones I see have good plans to help members overcome their shortcomings. A lot people today don’t like being told that they don’t meet the standard and that they need to improve.

Rory should know better, especially having worked in OJAG, that the CAF judges have abdicated any responsibility for maintaining good order and discipline by their sentences long ago. How long has it been since someone has been dismissed from the CAF via court martial? How long since someone has been sent to DB?

Our military lawyers working in DMP seem so disconnected from how to maintain good order and discipline forcing the chain of command to use administrative measures to handle what any reasonable person would see as problem children of all ranks.

 

[QV]

Quick and effective discipline is essential to maintain an effective fighting force. I say that as having witnessed it many times, and being on the wrong end of it occasionally, back in my 031 days. Fond memories.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Rory should know better, especially having worked in OJAG, that the CAF judges have abdicated any responsibility for maintaining good order and discipline by their sentences long ago. How long has it been since someone has been dismissed from the CAF via court martial? How long since someone has been sent to DB?

Our military lawyers working in DMP seem so disconnected from how to maintain good order and discipline forcing the chain of command to use administrative measures to handle what any reasonable person would see as problem children of all ranks.

Rory does know better.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I mean is it really uncommon to see people at that level on remedial measures?

I'm guessing yes, and that it's not great for someone's career, but really have no idea.

I have no idea how many COs, Unit CWOs or DCOs are on remedial measures. It is certainly possible to be on remedial measures and not lose a key position.

Here is the thing: Remedial Measures are not necessarily career killers. It depends what it is for and how the person being remediated takes it.

There is nothing the CAF loves more than a successful reclamation project.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The problem with Rory’s take is that we now literally have the worst of all worlds.

CO’s must maintain good order and discipline. Says so, right in the Commissioning Scroll.

The Summary hearing system is currently woefully inadequate for that task. And the JAG branch has once again complicated what was supposed to be a quick and easy disciplinary process and turned it into a justice system.

Court Martial’s take too long to come to trial and are more about justice than discipline.

Remedial Measures are relatively easy, but getting DMCA to actually release a shitbird takes years of shitty behaviour and (often) hundreds of pages of documentation.

If COs, other Officers, or NCOs actually try to enforce discipline, they will almost certainly face retaliation in the form of a no limits, no consequence harassment and grievance complaint system that is routinely weaponized against unit leadership.

So Rory, what is your solution?

Interesting experiences. I agree it takes way to much work to eject someone from our employ. But I haven't had the experience of retribution from the ranks for upholding good order and discipline. That is a concern I can recognize though.

Quick and effective discipline is essential to maintain an effective fighting force. I say that as having witnessed it many times, and being on the wrong end of it occasionally, back in my 031 days. Fond memories.

The problem is we abused this and people.

 

[QV]

The problem is we abused this and people.

Some of it was harsh, but meh, these were young fighting men who occasionally needed their ass kicked to remind them where the guardrails are.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I think discipline can be firm, without being abusive.

The problem is: everyone wants to talk about individual rights and no one wants to discuss individual responsibilities.

 

[KevinB]

Rory should know better, especially having worked in OJAG, that the CAF judges have abdicated any responsibility for maintaining good order and discipline by their sentences long ago. How long has it been since someone has been dismissed from the CAF via court martial? How long since someone has been sent to DB?

Our military lawyers working in DMP seem so disconnected from how to maintain good order and discipline forcing the chain of command to use administrative measures to handle what any reasonable person would see as problem children of all ranks.

Rory does know better.

So one think to note about his commentary - is that he understands/knows, that the entire system is broken.

I tend to agree that the CAF recently has been using Administrative Procedures to deal with Discipline issues -- which sometimes are intertwined, but not always.

During my time in the CAF, I certainly has more than my fair share of encounters with both the Admin and Discipline Systems, both wearing and not wearing my beret.
Some were very legitimate issues - handled and dealt with professionally.
Some where entirely criminal that got swept under the rug due to Regimentalisms, Reg/Res Issues etc


One issue I will bring forward -

Now once I was charged for being AWOL (returned from Afghanistan and went on leave - Chief Clerk wasn’t able to add my Leave from the tour to the leave pass, as said he would generate a new one). I drove across country with a buddy and didn’t think anything of it.
I get a call to my parents house asking why I am still there by the Bn Orderly Sgt - I tell the Sgt (who was actually a M/Cpl I know fairly well) my circumstances - he says - better get back here.
So I jump in my truck and drive back across country - and report to the BOS (a Sgt I know) on Friday night. He says okay - why are you here, and I said I am reporting as apparently my leave didn’t get extended. He acknowledged my arrival and sent me on my way (back to the barrack block I was in)

Monday after PT, the CSM snags me and I get Charged for being AWOL - not just the Tuesday - Friday that my leave pass didn’t cover -- but also Sat and Sunday as the CO (Ian Hope) has decided that I didn’t actually report in on Friday.

So OC sends it to CO, CO attempts to have a Summary Trial (this is 2004), I say - no I want a Courts Martial (as I know they have no case).
CO (Ian Hope) sends it back to the OC, doesn’t seem fishy at all does it.
OC finds me guilty - and I get 10 days CB
I at the time felt bad somewhat for the OC, as he made it very clear he didn’t think I was guilty based on the testimony from various witnesses but delivered a guilty verdict due to CO direction -- (hindsight I think it was a lack of character not to stand up to the CO)
My Assisting Officer apologized to me after, as he said he’d never seen a worse railroad job. done, and was embarrassed to a PPCLI Officer.

After my CB expired, I was directed to take my Post Deployment Leave.

Now in hindsight, I never should have left without the second leave pass -

Pretty blatant abuse of the system

 

[McG]

I mean is it really uncommon to see people at that level on remedial measures?

I'm guessing yes, and that it's not great for someone's career, but really have no idea.

Remedial measures are hidden by privacy, so it should be inherently uncommon to see any that are unrelated to yourself or your subordinates.

That’s the reason they don’t work in lieu of a professional disciplinary system. A profession needs its discipline in the light of day … that is part of how a profession communicates what is or is not acceptable behaviour (both to the public and to the members).

 

[daftandbarmy]

Remedial measures are hidden by privacy, so it should be inherently uncommon to see any that are unrelated to yourself or your subordinates.

That’s the reason they don’t work in lieu of a professional disciplinary system. A profession needs its discipline in the light of day … that is part of how a profession communicates what is or is not acceptable behaviour (both to the public and to the members).

Bingo.

Otherwise the 'Od Boys' Network' will always tend to win out...

 

[The Bread Guy]

Some of it was harsh, but meh, these were young fighting men who occasionally needed their ass kicked to remind them where the guardrails are.

True, given the nature of the job and the generally young demographic involved.

Like most systems, though, sometimes the "got their shit together" folks suffer because of rule changes caused by the worst of the worst, making it a sub-optimal system for everyone.