5 Aug 10: Hard Landing for CAN Chinook in K'Har Province

[aesop081]

And hasn't the RAF sidelined the MH's they bought due to Avionics issues?

They were reverted back to the same standard as the other Chinooks they have.

 

[Good2Golf]

They were reverted back to the same standard as the other Chinooks they have.

Indeed, the so-called HC.3 Chinooks (meant specifically for SF-use) were 'reverted' backwards to pretty much a HC.2a Chinook.  The procurement represents and extreme case of "best intentions."  MoD wanted to keep the cost down, so the aircraft were not built to full SF-standard...at the time, the US 160th SOAR(A)'s MH-47E Chinook.  The avionics were different as were a number of other sub-systems.  Not mentioned often in the investigatory material was that UK MoD also revised its generic software specifications/standards between when the HC.3's were ordered and when they were delivered.  The net effect was extreme difficulty to certify the HC.3's to the MoD's s/w std of the day.  Huge amounts of money were spent above and beyond the original authorized levels in order to revert the aircraft back to a known/confirmed/certifiable standard, the HC.2a

This lesson was considered very carefully when Canada came to work its own new Chinook program.  For all the criticism that DND had thrown at it for wanting gold-plated coffee holders and fancy leather seating and radically different configurations, this has been far from the truth.  Information released by DND indicates that many of the so-called "unique" capabilities notes that design basis comes from systems already in service.  By way of example, the CH147F MHLH will share its CAAS avionics with its sister US Army CH and MH-47 Chinooks so that all software upgrades will be essentially identical to the largest fleet of Chinooks operating in the world...no HC.3 for us.

Cheers
G2G

 

[Old Sweat]

The CF has confirmed the Chinook was shot down by small arms fire.

The following story from the National Post web site is posted under the Fair Comments provision of the Copyright Act.


Postmedia News · Saturday, Aug. 7, 2010

A Canadian Forces Chinook helicopter was struck by small arms fire, forcing it to make an emergency landing Thursday in dangerous Panjwaii district, west of Kandahar City, Canadian Forces confirmed on Saturday.

The helicopter was carrying five crew members and 16 passengers. It caught fire after making what military officials termed a "hard landing," 20 kilometres southwest of Kandahar City.

Eight people aboard sustained minor injuries, but the exact nature of the injuries has still not been disclosed.

The Chinook caught fire and was destroyed after it landed.

"Although a helicopter has been lost, this incident highlights the skills of Canadian aircrews deployed in Afghanistan," Brig.-Gen. Jon Vance, Commander of Task Force Kandahar, said in a statement. "The fact that no one was seriously harmed during the emergency landing speaks to the ability of our aircrews to perform under pressure."

Following the landing, a Taliban spokesman told reporters in Kandahar that the insurgent group downed the helicopter, and that there were casualties.

The Taliban claimed responsibility for an incident in 2007 the saw an American Chinook downed in Helmand province, a claim that was publicly dismissed by International Security Assistance Force.

In 2009, Canadian CH-147 helicopters — the type that went down Thursday — flew roughly 3,000 flying hours, transporting over 30,000 passengers and delivering over 1,000 metric tonnes of cargo, Canadian Forces said.

Canada's Chinooks in Kandahar ferry troops and supplies to volatile regions in the province and, like other low-flying aircraft, they can at times be exposed to enemy fire.
.

 

[HItorMiss]

I was wondering when that would come out....

At least we are being honest as to the cause I mean it could so easily be spun into Mechanical Faliure etc etc. Nope the CF manned up and said Yup the enemy brought it down

BZ to the Pilots and Crew who from my insider info says did an outstanding job saving the lives of themselves and their passengers.

 

[GK .Dundas]

Indeed, the so-called HC.3 Chinooks (meant specifically for SF-use) were 'reverted' backwards to pretty much a HC.2a Chinook.  The procurement represents and extreme case of "best intentions."  MoD wanted to keep the cost down, so the aircraft were not built to full SF-standard...at the time, the US 160th SOAR(A)'s MH-47E Chinook.  The avionics were different as were a number of other sub-systems.  Not mentioned often in the investigatory material was that UK MoD also revised its generic software specifications/standards between when the HC.3's were ordered and when they were delivered.  The net effect was extreme difficulty to certify the HC.3's to the MoD's s/w std of the day.  Huge amounts of money were spent above and beyond the original authorized levels in order to revert the aircraft back to a known/confirmed/certifiable standard, the HC.2a

This lesson was considered very carefully when Canada came to work its own new Chinook program.  For all the criticism that DND had thrown at it for wanting gold-plated coffee holders and fancy leather seating and radically different configurations, this has been far from the truth.  Information released by DND indicates that many of the so-called "unique" capabilities notes that design basis comes from systems already in service.  By way of example, the CH147F MHLH will share its CAAS avionics with its sister US Army CH and MH-47 Chinooks so that all software upgrades will be essentially identical to the largest fleet of Chinooks operating in the world...no HC.3 for us.

Cheers
G2G
[/quote There is a certain irony that  like the Brits. our worst procurement screw ups seem to happen when ever we try to save money.DND has on occasion spent millions all in order to try  a few hundred thousand.

 

[Good2Golf]

I was wondering when that would come out....

At least we are being honest as to the cause I mean it could so easily be spun into Mechanical Faliure etc etc. Nope the CF manned up and said Yup the enemy brought it down

BZ to the Pilots and Crew who from my insider info says did an outstanding job saving the lives of themselves and their passengers.

Indeed, BM!  The aircraft commander and his crew did a fantastic job getting the Hook down on the ground!  As noted earlier, the aircraft provided an excellent platform in getting back down on the ground asap.  Well done to all involved!

Concur that there is no attempt whatsoever to avoid admitting the cause of the forced landing.

Cheers
G2G

 

[dapaterson]

This lesson was considered very carefully when Canada came to work its own new Chinook program.  For all the criticism that DND had thrown at it for wanting gold-plated coffee holders and fancy leather seating and radically different configurations, this has been far from the truth.  Information released by DND indicates that many of the so-called "unique" capabilities notes that design basis comes from systems already in service.  By way of example, the CH147F MHLH will share its CAAS avionics with its sister US Army CH and MH-47 Chinooks so that all software upgrades will be essentially identical to the largest fleet of Chinooks operating in the world...no HC.3 for us.

Cheers
G2G

You sure seem to know a lot about this.  Maybe we should post you to Ottawa to work on acquisitions for the rest of your career!

 

[Old Sweat]

You sure seem to know a lot about this.  Maybe we should post you to Ottawa to work on acquisitions for the rest of your career!

And we have a precedent in an aviator in a key position in CLS. G2G would be just the guy to sort out the CTS organization.

On a more serious note, BZ to the aircrew for a job well done. Can you imagine the shock if we had lost 21 personnel in a crash?

This, by the way, is the first CF aircraft lost to ground fire since Gray's Corsair was shot down in August 1945. (I am not counting the Auster flown by Captain Joe Liston in Korea as it was a British aircraft or the Buffalo downed by a Syrian missile.)

 

[SeanNewman]

... is the first CF aircraft lost to ground fire since Gray's Corsair was shot down in August 1945...

Since then, have there been any others at all other than the Buffalo 461 peacekeeping one (3 x Syrian missiles)?

 

[Old Sweat]

I was illogical in my post above. Gray was flying a Fleet Air Arm Corsair, so Liston, who was flying an aircraft belonging to a British unit, should count as our last Canadian shot down by ground fire in war.

There are accounts of the latter incident in both the RCHA and the Air OP histories. Liston was wearing a parachute and managed to bail out, although he was captured shortly after landing. He was a battery commander in 1 RCHA in Gagetown when I joined the regiment in 1961. After that, he disappeared into where ever the army filed old non-staff college graduate majors until he reached CRA.

 

[Dog Walker]

Wasn’t there a helicopter shot down in Vietnam in 1973? It was part of the force monitoring the ceasefire following the American pullout. Two or three members of 12RBC died in that one. 

 

[armyvern]

Wasn’t there a helicopter shot down in Vietnam in 1973? It was part of the force monitoring the ceasefire following the American pullout. Two or three members of 12RBC died in that one.

Capt Charles E. Laviollette, CD
12e Regiment blinde du Canada
7 Apr 1973

Canada’s role with ICCS was non-combatant, yet losses were suffered. One Canadian, Capt Charles Laviolette, was killed when the helicopter he was flying in was shot down while on a reconnaissance mission to Lao Bao, in Region One.

Just one Canadian was killed in the helicopter, however, Canada did lose another soldier (also part of the ICCS) there:

LS Ned W. Memnook
HMCS Terra Nova
15 Mar 1973

 

[Good2Golf]

Since then, have there been any others at all other than the Buffalo 461 peacekeeping one (3 x Syrian missiles)?

Nope.  Buffalo 461 was the last CF aircraft to be shot down, in their case by 'beligerants' while supporting the UNEF/UNDOF peacekeeping missions.

DAP, hey, I paid my dues in Ottawa!  :nod:  Maybe next rank they'll have an argument to drag me back, but I figure I should get one more kick at the cat before they put me out to staff officer pasture!  ;D

The crew of the "Magic Bus", the fond nickname for CH147202, did a phenomenal job getting the beast down on the ground, and getting everyone of safe and sound!

Regards
G2G

CF Combat Camera photo of '202' back in January 2009, 'hot-closed-circuit refueling' during a mission.
(photo link)

 

[The Bread Guy]

This from the Canadian Press:

The Canadian military has confirmed that hostile fire forced down a Chinook helicopter in August, but remains uncertain about what weapon the insurgents used.

Initial reports from Task Force Kandahar suggested the helicopter, which was carrying 21 people including crew, had taken small-arms fire as it flew over the Panjwaii district.

Eight people suffered minor injuries when the Chinook was forced to make an emergency landing near the village of Armarah, southwest of Kandahar city.

But a recently completed investigation by military officials in Afghanistan revisited that conclusion, according to the commanding officer of the Canadian air wing in Kandahar.

"What we know is that it was taken down by enemy action, nothing has changed there," Col. Paul Prevost said.

"What we cannot find out exactly is the weapon that was used on it. You have to understand the airplane was burned within the following minutes." ....

Initial ISAF statement here, Taliban's version of events (via non-terrorist page) here - more Taliban anti-air OSINT here.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Bumped with the latest.....

A final report into the crash of a Canadian battlefield helicopter outside of Kandahar city in the summer of 2010 has concluded that CH-147 Chinook helicopters need “crash-worthy seating” and restraints for passengers.

The helicopter, which was on a routine supply mission and had just departed a nearby base, was reportedly shot down by Taliban ground fire.

The pilots were able to successfully land the aircraft in an open field and everyone got out with only minor injuries.

Investigators say an in-flight fire ultimately brought down the chopper.

They were reluctant to render a finding that the aircraft was shot down, saying there was “no conclusive correlation” between the gunfire and the blaze.

The investigation into the August 2010 crash looked only at the effectiveness of life support equipment and emergency procedures for getting out of the aircraft.

The recommendations, including better seating and restraints, are something that air force planners will have to consider as the military prepares to take delivery of 15 brand new CH-147-F helicopters next year ....

The Canadian Press, 18 Dec 12

DND news release here, investigation reports here.