6 Feb 12: Charges laid against CIC officer

[Journeyman]

....... I doubt it would be easy to build a convincing case in this situation, in spite of how bad an abuse of power this represents.

I think it would be pretty easy; hell, even the opposition parties would likely buy in rather than risk being seen as supporting a child molester. In a simplistic world where public analysis and understanding of events is barely headline-deep, and based on the Williams' precedent, I can see muck-raking media trumpetting:

DND Says Murdering Subordinates/Wearing their Underwear on Head is Bad;
Diddling Underage Cadets -- Not So Bad
Harper to blame ​

I think it's a no-brainer to muster public support where the incidents involve protection of minors....unless of course, there appears to be no public interest, in which case the government will simply ignore the Court Martial, rather than do the right thing, in order to minimize further media attention.

Strip his commission! 

 

[Jarnhamar]

How long does it take for an appeal to happen?

I'm glad its over...........hopefully, we can all move on. It has been a challenge........not everyday that one of your co-workers ends up CM'd.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you but your comment confuses me.  How exactly are you challenged by your co-worker being CM'd?

Do you perhaps mean the challenge is from the institution you belong to having it's honour image and credibility tarnished by his behavior?  Or challenging by having the trust of your subordinates shaken?

 

[my72jeep]

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you but your comment confuses me.  How exactly are you challenged by your co-worker being CM'd?

Do you perhaps mean the challenge is from the institution you belong to having it's honour image and credibility tarnished by his behavior?  Or challenging by having the trust of your subordinates shaken?

If I remember Army Salior is from the same unit as the Gulty party.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I think it's a no-brainer to muster public support where the incidents involve protection of minors....unless of course, there appears to be no public interest, in which case the government will simply ignore the Court Martial, rather than do the right thing, in order to minimize further media attention.

Strip his commission! 

Don't get me wrong - I'm with you on the idea, but does that mean that'll have to happen to all the others found guilty of this crap in the past?  Go for them, too, but just sayin' about the threshold that was needed for this to happen a first time.

 

[garb811]

Yes but, as this was a CM, would the sentence not be served at DB in Edmonton?

And why was this done under a CM anyway when the victims were civilian? Is there some odd loophole because they are cadets? I would have thought this would have gone through civilian courts. Or is it because of where the offences took place? I am quite curious as to why this wasn't dealt with by civilian courts as I have seen in the past.

He was subject to the CSD at the time the offences were committed and they occurred on a Defence Establishment.  Status of the victims has no bearing.

 

[catalyst]

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you but your comment confuses me.  How exactly are you challenged by your co-worker being CM'd?

Do you perhaps mean the challenge is from the institution you belong to having it's honour image and credibility tarnished by his behavior?  Or challenging by having the trust of your subordinates shaken?

I can't fully answer that question properly without putting too much information out there.

I don't really worry about the institution's honour/image/credibility - it is strong, it will recover, as it has done before.

 

[FJAG]

So because it is hard we don't do it? This is not directed at you armyguyswife, as I presume you would also like to see him stripped of his commission.

FJAG et al, what do we need to do to make this happen?

Sorry. Not really sure. It shouldn't take an act of parliament as the commission comes from the Queen (Governor General). My view was that the commission (which in effect is an appointment to be her officer in the CF) ran in tandem with service with the forces and a dismissal by a court martial terminated the commission as well. I'm not sure that there is any formal process to strip someone of their commission although I remember in the Williams case apparently his commissioning scroll was to be shredded and his medals cut up.

 

[FJAG]

Yes but, as this was a CM, would the sentence not be served at DB in Edmonton?

And why was this done under a CM anyway when the victims were civilian? Is there some odd loophole because they are cadets? I would have thought this would have gone through civilian courts. Or is it because of where the offences took place? I am quite curious as to why this wasn't dealt with by civilian courts as I have seen in the past.

Either court could have taken jurisdiction. The fact that he could be tried as a reservist means to me that at the time of the offences he was subject to the code of service discipline (ie at a military facility or while he was on duty etc etc) and therefore I would think the civilian crown prosecutor would probably have had no objections to the military dealing with it because the offences were a serious breach of military discipline as well as a crime against the vistims.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I'm pretty sure the Governor General could stroll into his house and tear up his scroll.  It's a Queen's Commission, not a Parliamentary one.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I can't fully answer that question properly without putting too much information out there.

Fair enough. I just didn't notice you mentioning anything about the victims or the challenges they're facing.

I understand how being a member of the unit you can't really comment. Cheers.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Sorry. Not really sure. It shouldn't take an act of parliament as the commission comes from the Queen (Governor General). My view was that the commission (which in effect is an appointment to be her officer in the CF) ran in tandem with service with the forces and a dismissal by a court martial terminated the commission as well. I'm not sure that there is any formal process to strip someone of their commission although I remember in the Williams case apparently his commissioning scroll was to be shredded and his medals cut up.

From DND's news release on the Williams situation linked earlier in the thread (also attached if link doesn't work) - highlights mine....

Upon the recommendation of General Walt Natynczyk, Chief of the Defence Staff, His Excellency the Right Honourable David Johnston, Governor General and Commander-in-Chief of Canada, has signed the documents revoking the commission of Russell Williams and approved his release from the Canadian Forces (CF).

(....)

The governor general is commander-in-chief of Canada. As such, the governor general plays a major role in recognizing the importance of Canada’s military at home and abroad. Among these duties, the governor general signs Commissioning Scrolls. Every officer, for the discharge of his or her duties, holds a commission granted by the governor general on behalf of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II and countersigned by the Minister of National Defence.  Along with the authority to grant such commissions is the authority of the governor general to revoke them.

What process leads up to the CDS recommendation?  No clue, but happy to know more from those who do.

 

[Blackadder1916]

From DND's news release on the Williams situation linked earlier in the thread (also attached if link doesn't work) - highlights mine....What process leads up to the CDS recommendation?  No clue, but happy to know more from those who do.

The Governor General revokes commissions quite often, regularly in fact, though it is likely a pro forma function.  As FJAG mentioned above, an officer holds a commission in tandem with his service in the CF (or the RCMP or CCG for those officers who hold commissions in those organizations).  When an officer releases (either compulsorily or voluntarily) from the CF, his commission is revoked.  While the QR&Os states that the authority to release a commissioned officer rests with the Governor General, the administrative processing (and approval)  happens within the CF/DND.  Approval authorities for release are (or had been during my time in) delegated to various levels depending on the rank level and type of release.  I assume that the CDS very publically sent the recommendation for release (and concurrent revocation of commission) to the GG because of the optics involved in the Williams case.

A while back, I received notice that I had been released from the Supp Res.  I was understandably confused as I had not reached either the CRA or the ten years of inactive service deadline that the Supp Res uses as the reason for release.  When I contacted them to question their action, I found out that they had no record of my Primary Res service and were going on the end date of my Reg F service.  It seemed that no one talks to the Supp Res.  Trying to correct this became an issue as they told me that "they had already sent my name (along with the other ones for that month) to the Governor General for notification of release and cancelling my commission".  What they do at Government House with such information I do not know, but no one asked for my scroll back.

 

[catalyst]

Fair enough. I just didn't notice you mentioning anything about the victims or the challenges they're facing.

I understand how being a member of the unit you can't really comment. Cheers.

There's a gag order identifying anything about them. Thus, I can't(and wont) touch that without a ten-foot pole.

 

[The Bread Guy]

The Governor General revokes commissions quite often, regularly in fact, though it is likely a pro forma function.  As FJAG mentioned above, an officer holds a commission in tandem with his service in the CF (or the RCMP or CCG for those officers who hold commissions in those organizations).  When an officer releases (either compulsorily or voluntarily) from the CF, his commission is revoked.  While the QR&Os states that the authority to release a commissioned officer rests with the Governor General, the administrative processing (and approval)  happens within the CF/DND.  Approval authorities for release are (or had been during my time in) delegated to various levels depending on the rank level and type of release.  I assume that the CDS very publically sent the recommendation for release (and concurrent revocation of commission) to the GG because of the optics involved in the Williams case.

A while back, I received notice that I had been released from the Supp Res.  I was understandably confused as I had not reached either the CRA or the ten years of inactive service deadline that the Supp Res uses as the reason for release.  When I contacted them to question their action, I found out that they had no record of my Primary Res service and were going on the end date of my Reg F service.  It seemed that no one talks to the Supp Res.  Trying to correct this became an issue as they told me that "they had already sent my name (along with the other ones for that month) to the Governor General for notification of release and cancelling my commission".  What they do at Government House with such information I do not know, but no one asked for my scroll back.

Thanks for the rest of the story - much appreciated.

 

[gwp]

Unfortunately youth organisations are ripe with people like this. I wonder how many days this member served at one of the national camps? I would LOVE to see the media jump onboard and do some investigative journalism into this organisation. Parents think their kids are heading off with "military men and women" when infact their children are being sent off with people with less than 20 days training as officers of the CF. Maybe the media could also look into how much we fund this program; and why must the nation pay for this youth organisation while others seem to do just fine internally. Maybe look at how much money is paid out to people who have made a full federally paid career as a cadet officer. Look how many cadet officers are making over 100,000 to do not much at all.
Parents deserve to know; most don't know the difference.

I am little late in my response to this rant but it may be instructive to know that the most common thing that happens in this regard in the cadet organization is the cadet that does not want to go home from summer training.  He or she is hiding in a shower, hiding in a locker, they do not want to get on the bus to go home .... because they have had two, three, or six weeks of safety .. they have made friends, been well fed, had great fun, learned stuff .. they have been exposed to the harrassement breifing and perhaps discussed their life with other cadets.  They have come to understand that part of their life does not have to be the way it is and going home puts them in harms way as someone in their home is doing them evil.  There are about a dozen of such cases every year. The cadet organization empowers young people to report untoward behaviour.  The mistreatment of young people is not a cadet organization problem.  It is a societal problem.


The revised Cadet Instructor Branch BOQ and Initial MOC Course involves 65 days of computer based DL and in house training. 

 

[Scott]

I am little late in my response to this rant but it may be instructive to know that the most common thing that happens in this regard in the cadet organization is the cadet that does not want to go home from summer training.  He or she is hiding in a shower, hiding in a locker, they do not want to get on the bus to go home .... because they have had two, three, or six weeks of safety .. they have made friends, been well fed, had great fun, learned stuff .. they have been exposed to the harrassement breifing and perhaps discussed their life with other cadets.  They have come to understand that part of their life does not have to be the way it is and going home puts them in harms way as someone in their home is doing them evil.  There are about a dozen of such cases every year. The cadet organization empowers young people to report untoward behaviour.  The mistreatment of young people is not a cadet organization problem.  It is a societal problem.

Only a year late, but fine. Plenty of other people already rebutted the statement you went after, and you did notice where I had said enough was enough, right?

No one here is stupid. We know hockey coaches, Scout leaders, whatever, have it in them to do this. It's not the organization they belong to that sees them short circuit in such a manner, it's down to the individual. What the organization does, on the other hand, to root this shit out and see the perverts punished, is another thing altogether.

 

[Pusser]

The Governor General revokes commissions quite often, regularly in fact, though it is likely a pro forma function.  As FJAG mentioned above, an officer holds a commission in tandem with his service in the CF (or the RCMP or CCG for those officers who hold commissions in those organizations).  When an officer releases (either compulsorily or voluntarily) from the CF, his commission is revoked.  While the QR&Os states that the authority to release a commissioned officer rests with the Governor General, the administrative processing (and approval)  happens within the CF/DND.  Approval authorities for release are (or had been during my time in) delegated to various levels depending on the rank level and type of release.  I assume that the CDS very publically sent the recommendation for release (and concurrent revocation of commission) to the GG because of the optics involved in the Williams case.

A while back, I received notice that I had been released from the Supp Res.  I was understandably confused as I had not reached either the CRA or the ten years of inactive service deadline that the Supp Res uses as the reason for release.  When I contacted them to question their action, I found out that they had no record of my Primary Res service and were going on the end date of my Reg F service.  It seemed that no one talks to the Supp Res.  Trying to correct this became an issue as they told me that "they had already sent my name (along with the other ones for that month) to the Governor General for notification of release and cancelling my commission".  What they do at Government House with such information I do not know, but no one asked for my scroll back.

Sorry to chime in so late, but I just noticed this and had to speak up. Commissions are rarely if ever revoked.  In fact, Russell Williams is the only Canadian officer to ever have a commission revoked.  It's quite a process and folks actually had to look up the procedure when it was done!  There is a difference between being released from the CF and losing one's commission.  The two do not go hand in hand.  QR&O 15.09 describes the use of rank after release.  If one can retain one's rank after release, then one can retain the commission that goes with it.  Whoever told you that your commission was being cancelled was simply wrong.