6 Jan 2020 U.S. Events (Split from A Deeply Fractured US)

[Brad Sallows]

The peaceful transition of power everywhere hinges mostly upon the entirely informal tacit agreement (customary practices) by the incoming tribe not to persecute the members of the outgoing tribe. There have to be processes, but we always like to dress these things up in solemnity and pomp, hence "trappings". The Democrats' show trial commission is a much greater threat to peaceful transfer of power (there's a role for a commission, but the one the Democrats want and the way they are running it is not that commission, and the more they insist on punishing their enemies, the less peaceful transitions will be). A few hours' interruption by a large band of mostly jackasses is a sideshow. Regardless, the difference between a jackass and an insurrectionist is easy to see. Unless you've been gravely insulted.

The libertarians and the classical liberals in the US want moderation and proportionality in dealing with the protestors. The left, including the conservatives offended by Trump, want punishment and lots of it. I agree with the former. In this, as in other arenas, the latter have become close to deranged in what they seek to visit upon their political opponents.

 

[The Bread Guy]

... If the reports of the conditions in which some of these people have been incarcerated are true, it's outrageous ...

How are their conditions different? I don't think the U.S. is exactly, across the board, a model of progressive jail practices, so if they're getting the same treatment as, say, protesters one disagrees with, then fair is fair.

 

[Brad Sallows]

I doubt most people awaiting trial are held for several months in what is described in the press as "solitary confinement".

 

[QV]

The part in all this I find fascinating is the degree of glee in those wanting to see people punished who participated in the "Jan 6th rebellion", but the comparative lack of enthusiasm for incarcerating those who tried to burn down a court house occupied by police officers during the summer of love.

 

[Booter]

The part in all this I find fascinating is the degree of glee in those wanting to see people punished who participated in the "Jan 6th rebellion", but the comparative lack of enthusiasm for incarcerating those who tried to burn down a court house occupied by police officers during the summer of love.

Who are these people that have so clearly made that distinction so specifically?

 

[QV]

Who are these people that have so clearly made that distinction so specifically?

Wait a few minutes, they'll be along shortly.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I doubt most people awaiting trial are held for several months in what is described in the press as "solitary confinement".

Well, some have asked for this, and there was COVID about, too.

Sounds like the D.C. jail sucks for everyone, not just these folks - but some folks weren't hearing that when it was some people complaining about the conditions before January 6th, I guess.

 

[mariomike]

A protest lasting a few hours is one thing; lese majeste and insulting the authorities is another.

And this,

140 Officers were Injured in Capitol Riot, Officials Say

“I have officers who were not issued helmets prior to the attack who have sustained head injuries,” Gus Papathanasiou, Capitol Police union chairman, said in a statement Wednesday. “One officer has two cracked ribs and two smashed spinal discs and another was stabbed with a metal fence stake, to...

www.policemag.com

 

[brihard]

Well, some have asked for this, and there was COVID about, too.

Sounds like the D.C. jail sucks for everyone, not just these folks - but some folks weren't hearing that when it was some people complaining about the conditions before January 6th, I guess.

Remand custody sucks pretty much everywhere- in many places to an extent that’s borderline inhumane. Depending on jurisdiction, this can be taken into account in sentencing.

Pre-trial custody is typically to ensure attendance in court, to prevent further offending while before the courts, to protect victims from further acts, and potentially the protect the perceptions of the Justice system. This is a simplification of course, but these are the main reasons.

Many of the Jan 6th accused have made bail and been released. Each case is looked at and assessed individually.

 

[RangerRay]

Where are you seeing that?

I have seen several articles over the last few months but now I can’t find them.

 

[lenaitch]

Given the overwhelming amount of work they’ve had to do, prosecutors and investigators have done very well moving this many files forward simultaneously. Most of what we've seen so far are more straightforward prosecutions. I suspect there's more to come.

No kidding. How many convictions inside ten months. In Ontario, and probably many other Canadian jurisdictions, we'd still be trying schedule dates.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The US system involves a lot of plea-bargaining. Here (Reason.com take on Shaman) cites 97% figure.

 

[brihard]

The US system involves a lot of plea-bargaining. Here (Reason.com take on Shaman) cites 97% figure.

Department of Justice has said it’s about 90% in Canada. Not unusual.

Most people criminally charged did actually ‘do the thing’ and know it. If the investigation can stand up to procedural scrutiny, best bet is make a deal. You get a sentencing discount by not forcing a victim to testify.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Sure. I assume here, not being the US, we would offer the deal for a 3-5 year sentence by hanging a 3-5 year charge over the suspect, not risk pressuring innocent people into pleading in order to remove a risk of facing 20 years or more?

 

[QV]

The US system involves a lot of plea-bargaining. Here (Reason.com take on Shaman) cites 97% figure.

If the article is accurate that its routine to hang an inflated charge/sentence on a guy to chase a plea deal… it’s getting harder and harder to keep respecting some institution.

 

[brihard]

If the article is accurate that its routine to hang an inflated charge/sentence on a guy to chase a plea deal… it’s getting harder and harder to keep respecting some institution.

It's very normal to investigate something and lay a selection of the most serious charges the facts can support, knowing that a reality of the system is such that a plea deal on a 'lesser but included' is likely. That doesn't mean the charges are 'inflated', it means the elements of the more serious offence(s) are met, and that it's likely that for a combination of public interest and the self-interest of the accused, a deal will be struck for a guilty plea, and reduced sentencing.

Again, in the vast majority of cases, they "did the thing".

 

[QV]

It's very normal to investigate something and lay a selection of the most serious charges the facts can support, knowing that a reality of the system is such that a plea deal on a 'lesser but included' is likely. That doesn't mean the charges are 'inflated', it means the elements of the more serious offence(s) are met, and that it's likely that for a combination of public interest and the self-interest of the accused, a deal will be struck for a guilty plea, and reduced sentencing.

Again, in the vast majority of cases, they "did the thing".

From the article, the QAnon Shamen (it's hard to say that title with a straight face) was looking at 20 years. That doesn't seem proportional to me for what that individual did, but I suppose depending on where you sit on the scale of political progressiveness it could look about right.

 

[Booter]

That’s not how laws work. He would be charged with an offence that would have a maximum punishment of 20 years, or the collection of charges was sentences around 20 years. So while he’s looking at twenty he isn’t really, it’s the maximum punishment,

In Canada the maximum punishment for breaking and entering someone’s house is life in prison. The real punishment is generally probation or a suspended sentence.

You’ll have a point when ANYONE in these proceedings gets a decade in jail.

If you have specialized knowledge or any field go read an article in the media about that area and tell me you find it accurate and not hilarious. The law is the same thing. Despite how everyone thinks they have some special insight with no experience.

It’s not a left and right issue. It’s the system that’s in place that both sides of the spectrum use and then talk smack about when it’s not working for their team.

 

[QV]

That’s not how laws work. He would be charged with an offence that would have a maximum punishment of 20 years, or the collection of charges was sentences around 20 years. So while he’s looking at twenty he isn’t really, it’s the maximum punishment,

In Canada the maximum punishment for breaking and entering someone’s house is life in prison. The real punishment is generally probation or a suspended sentence.

You’ll have a point when ANYONE in these proceedings gets a decade in jail.

If you have specialized knowledge or any field go read an article in the media about that area and tell me you find it accurate and not hilarious. The law is the same thing. Despite how everyone thinks they have some special insight with no experience.

It’s not a left and right issue. It’s the system that’s in place that both sides of the spectrum use and then talk smack about when it’s not working for their team.

Right, but the layperson doesn't know that. And in the Shamen case when the judge states "you are smart" for not exercising his rights to a trial because he was "looking at 20"... that sends a powerful message. The message being: "take the licks the state is giving you because if you challenge us it will be far far worse for you".

More often these days, it's not necessarily what they are doing, it's how they publicly articulate why they did it.

Agree with your point on the media reporting on any particular field.

 

[Booter]

I do find it wild the way some judges speak in the states. I agree with you. That caught my eye too.

Then there is the videos coming out of the Rittenhouse trial