8 Car RECCE Troop

[Reccesoldier]

When does asking (and including a PLEASE,would you) deemed to be "see fit to call me"? again you seem angry, why?

What does my level of experience have to do with my original post in the first place? A person is either right or wrong regardless of if he has 10 years or 10 days TI

True, however using your logic of another car with the Tp Ldr (The fact that C/S are in front of him does not guarantee security), having another car with him would fall under your"does not guarantee security", would it not?

What are you arguing semantics for. Nothing on the battlefield "guarantees" security. Your argument is worse than useless.

Again ture, losing a car in a 7 car troop has the same effect (still 3 ptls) as the Tp Ldr takes a ptl, is this not flexability?

Yes it is flexibility but what about ops that are of the standard and longer duration i.e. longer than a weekend. your TL becomes a patrol commander and is soon burned out from the op tempo as he tries to be all things to everyone.

We have been doing recce (in cougars) from 2000 while mantaing our cougar role, as well as doing y2k missions whick were in large part recce tasks, I take this as being in the 21 century, would it not?

Allways, never less?

Read what was written... "UP TO 72/96 hours."

 

[12alfa]

What does my level of experience have to do with my original post in the first place? A person is either right or wrong regardless of if he has 10 years or 10 days TI

I was just asking, seems I pushed your button.

What are you arguing semantics for. Nothing on the battlefield "guarantees" security. Your argument is worse than useless.

Yes a different point of view is a argument....to some

Yes it is flexibility but what about ops that are of the standard and longer duration i.e. longer than a weekend. your TL becomes a patrol commander and is soon burned out from the op tempo as he tries to be all things to everyone.

As in a 8 car troop where he is now a Ptl comdr? Tp ldr, rover?

We have been doing recce (in cougars) from 2000 while mantaing our cougar role, as well as doing y2k missions which were in large part recce tasks, I take this as being in the 21 century, would it not?

Read what was written... "UP TO 72/96 hours."

This is going nowheres, your right, I'm wrong. You are failing to read what I post, rather to be stuck on giving me a hard time for my views, not debating the pros and cons of a troop org. Me thinks a beer is in order, I see this debate is one sided, but it's not that I would expect any different, should have seen it in the 1st post reply.
Sorry for waisting both of our time...........

 

[Recce41]

OK Fellas
As one of the people that added imfo on the 8 car troop, wrote some info for of the TTPs, School SOPs, was a phase 4 (REG) course WO Recce maybe I know a lil. The 8th car is not there to secure the troop leader. It is there to be a added asset. IE Anti Armour, UAV.
And 12A, if the troop leader was in an OP with a patrol, he was not doing his job. The only time he should be in the OP is if you are down a CS. I have done single veh OPs, for 24 hrs. This may happen if you cannot veiw a TAI or NAI from just one spot. This would mean spliting up your patrol. YES spliting up.
Also no one is wrong or right. If it works, well your right, if it fails, your wrong. Its like all the war heros coming back from Afganistan, their right we're wrong. BS. It depends on the theatre and how your deployed. We did the same OPs in Bosnia in Coyotes, but with out the sand, did get shot at, and we did carry guns. But their the flavor of the month, so were wrong.
Heres one for you all, now most soldiers cannot do a proper dismounted OP. It was evident on the last few ARCCs.
:evil: :tank:

 

[12alfa]

OK Fellas
As one of the people that added imfo on the 8 car troop, wrote some info for of the TTPs, School SOPs, was a phase 4 (REG) course WO Recce maybe I know a lil. The 8th car is not there to secure the troop leader.

Thats what I thought, maybe my post was unclear
It is there to be a added asset. IE Anti Armour, UAV.
And 12A, if the troop leader was in an OP with a patrol, he was not doing his job.

Yes, are you saying he does not co-locate when in a rest mode?

The only time he should be in the OP is if you are down a CS. I have done single veh OPs, for 24 hrs. This may happen if you cannot veiw a TAI or NAI from just one spot. This would mean spliting up your patrol. YES spliting up.

Oh no!! what about a foot on the ground??
Also no one is wrong or right. If it works, well your right, if it fails, your wrong. Its like all the war heros coming back from Afganistan, their right we're wrong. BS. It depends on the theatre and how your deployed. We did the same OPs in Bosnia in Coyotes, but with out the sand, did get shot at, and we did carry guns. But their the flavor of the month, so were wrong.
Heres one for you all, now most soldiers cannot do a proper dismounted OP. It was evident on the last few ARCCs.
:evil: :tank:

 

[TCBF]

Longest OP I ever did in one spot was 20 days.

As a Recce Tp WO in Germany, I was once given in 'bulk' a Troops worth of crew cook breakfasts at a Sqn Rolling Replen as we transitioned into/back to OPs again.  No one thought of breaking it down into our actual tac gpings (patrols) before the rolling replen, and they resuplied us as if we were a Leopard Tp.  So I had ten minutes during refueling to divide it by four (three ptls and the Troopie).  Four days later I heard "Thanks for the eighteen year supply of strawberry jam."  (My answer: "Hey, suck it up, butter cup").

There are times when a single car will have to move alone.  It's called "Accepting Risk."  When one accepts risk, one naturally accepts responsibility for that risk.

I believe in the eight or six car troop.  It increases security and flexibility, as well as aiding in the transitioning of new commanders and crews into the troop.  We can rotate experienced 'second car commanders' into the B/D/F/G slots to help new Ptl Comds (TL/A/C/E/G) adjust faster.  The quicker your replacements learn, the longer they (and you) will live.

Tom

 

[DG-41]

I love the idea of an 8 car troop. I think it adresses one of the major shortfalls of the 7-car troop.

The Troop Leader is also the operational reserve. Don't forget the mision - eyes on the enemy. If a patrol gets bumped (or let's face it - eliminated) it is the Troop Leader's job to re-establish the contact and get the info flowing back to higher again. That means leading the nice safe hide and going forth and seeking out the enemy.

Whenever I had time (in an extended screen operation) I'd recce out an OP position for myself that covered the most likely routes of advance so I had a place to go if one of my forward OPs was taken out.

Having that extra vehicle along makes the concept of operational reserve actually practical.

The other nice thing is that the troop leader's crew never gets any sleep. The troop leader is always running around, going to orders, replenning OPs, and so on and the crew has to go along. Having a second car means the troop leader can rotate crews and keep one crew rested in (and securing!) the hide. Plus the crew in the hide will have radio contact with the other OPs (where a running-around troop leader may not) and so can relay messages.

As far as rank goes, I think the troop leader's junior should be a senior MCpl. You want somebody responsible enough to mind the store while the troop leader is out, but you don't want to waste a Sgt by chaining him to the troop leader. Being the troop leader's jr should be the step before getting your own patrol.

DG

 

[DG-41]

I have always been a big fan of the 8-car (as opposed to 7-car) Recce Troop, for the simple fact that I've never much liked the Troop Leader flopping around all by his lonesome without assistance. A Troop Leader who gets stuck on the way to/from orders, or who encounters the enemy on a forward recce, or who otherwise winds up someplace he shouldn't is in much better shape if he has someone along to help him. Not to mention that it makes Tp HQ occupation routine a whole lot less tiresome for the TL's crew if there are another three or four bodies to split the work with - and in a pinch, having the Golf callsign means that TL + Golf make up a full patrol, and can do full patrol tasks.

I'm also starting to get fond of the idea of a mixed-vehicle troop, where A, C, and E are mounted in GWagons, and Tp HQ are mounted in no-mast Coyotes.

But as I review the doctrine for Vehicle Checkpoints and Convoy Escorts, I've stumbled over another nice little side-effect of the 8-car troop. It seems that the minimum number of vehicles for a convoy escort is 4, the recommended number of pers to man a vehicle checkpoint is 8. It strikes me that a 4-car, two-patrol "half troop" fills these two requirements very nicely. Put HQ and C in one, put A and E in the other, and now a troop can conduct two (small) convoy escorts or two vehicle checkpoints.

There has to be a better name for a half troop than "half troop" though.

(This is the cue for someone to chime in and tell me that this used to be doctrine in nineteen-dickety three, and that once again, I have rediscovered the wheel)

Is there an official place to discuss doctrine?

DG

 

[George Wallace]

OK

You rediscovered the Wheel.   ;D

A flaw with your "escort" scenario.  You should have a min of four for the "escort", but that does not include the Escort/Convoy Commander.  That makes five.

You need a Patrol out front a few km (Advance Group), a Patrol escorting a small Convoy (The Close Protection Group), a Escort/Convoy Commander, and ideally a Patrol following a few km back as the Reserve Group.   That would ideally take up seven cars, with at least three cars 'Protecting' the convoy.  If it was a large Convoy, you may even require two or more Troops to act as the Close Protection Group.

 

[DG-41]

According to the TTP I have here, it can be done (and was done in theatre) with 4 - a patrol up front as the advance party, the Escort Commander leading the packet commander and the main body, and the final escort in the support element with the wrecker. 4 escort vehicles in total.

DG

 

[Recce41]

OK

You rediscovered the Wheel.   ;D

A flaw with your "escort" scenario.  You should have a min of four for the "escort", but that does not include the Escort/Convoy Commander.  That makes five.

You need a Patrol out front a few km (Advance Group), a Patrol escorting a small Convoy (The Close Protection Group), a Escort/Convoy Commander, and ideally a Patrol following a few km back as the Reserve Group.   That would ideally take up seven cars, with at least three cars 'Protecting' the convoy.  If it was a large Convoy, you may even require two or more Troops to act as the Close Protection Group.

George, I did two REAL excorts in Bosnai. For the Army Chief of the Brits and for the PM. We only had 4 vehs, 2 SAS Land Rovers and 2 Ilitis. One Rover was about a k ahead then us in a Ilitses and then the last Land Rover. For the PM 2 Cougars and then two JTF rovers.

But to go back to 8 cars, it is as I stated. It is in the new TTps.

 

[George Wallace]

Max Flex is the True Motto of the RCAC.  I know you can do it with four cars, but I personnally would not feel safe doing so.  One lone Car in the Advance Gp is not cosher.  For me; more the merrier, but we often are strapped with what we have on hand.

 

[orange.paint]

We used a 5 car troop and 2 mp's in bosnia,we were suppose to get air cover from a apache but it didnt show up.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

You can do it with two cars.  Life's like that sometimes.

2B

 

[reccecrewman]

From a young mans point of view. Considering the type of ops we do these days, we know what our task matrix looks like usually a week in advance (sometimes longer).  Be it in the training area or on ops.  So, could we not have say.............. the Alpha Patrol - Alpha ~ Mast / Bravo ~ Command; Charlie Patrol - Charlie ~ Mast / Delta ~ Remote & Troop Ldr. ~ Remote / Echo ~ Command.

9 times out of ten, we're doing overt O.P's or the tacsit demands the mast, particularly when conducting urban ops; My patrol deployed our remote once in 6 months.  Considering the patrol commanders go out and conduct recce's of their O.P sites ahead of time, it can be concluded in advance which variant will be needed.  With the Tp. Ldr. having the remote, he will not be utilized in the O.P situation that often, but with his echo c/s can still be utilized for route, area, point recce's, TCP/VCP's & liasing with his patrols etc. etc.

By all the patrols having a command, this gives each patrol much more room for extra food, water and other supplies.  By pulling one operator from each patrol and going with 7 per patrol, the troop still stands at 21 pers. 

 

[George Wallace]

From a young mans point of view. Considering the type of ops we do these days, we know what our task matrix looks like usually a week in advance (sometimes longer).  Be it in the training area or on ops.  So, could we not have say.............. the Alpha Patrol - Alpha ~ Mast / Bravo ~ Command; Charlie Patrol - Charlie ~ Mast / Delta ~ Remote & Troop Ldr. ~ Remote / Echo ~ Command.

Besides not agreeing with the number and grouping of the cars in your org, the 'Distribution of Kit' does not make sense to me.  You have actually dropped the Troop down to six cars.

9 times out of ten, we're doing overt O.P's or the tacsit demands the mast, particularly when conducting urban ops; My patrol deployed our remote once in 6 months.  Considering the patrol commanders go out and conduct recce's of their O.P sites ahead of time, it can be concluded in advance which variant will be needed.  With the Tp. Ldr. having the remote, he will not be utilized in the O.P situation that often, but with his echo c/s can still be utilized for route, area, point recce's, TCP/VCP's & liasing with his patrols etc. etc.

How does the Tp Ldr or any of the Patrol Ldrs do their jobs if they are plugged into a Remote or Mast?  If they have to move in your scenario, it is the Jnr C/S who will have to move.  How does the Tp Ldr conduct his Liason duties and/or Resupply if he is plugged into or carrying a Remote?

By all the patrols having a command, this gives each patrol much more room for extra food, water and other supplies.  By pulling one operator from each patrol and going with 7 per patrol, the troop still stands at 21 pers. 

I don't think that a Troop will remain at 21 pers.  If it goes to eight cars, it should rise to a min of 32 pers, depending on if you want 'Dismounts' or not.  Four man crews should be a min.

On a whole, I am confused at what you were trying to put forward.  It just doesn't make sense to me to put the Mast in a Ptl Ldr C/S and a Mast in a Tp Ldr C/S, and then make a Jnr C/S a Comd Veh.

 

[DG-41]

The Tp Ldr is always running around, getting orders, visiting/resupplying the OPs, etc so it makes no sense for him (or his Jr, who should be providing his security) to carry a mast or remote. If HQ Ptl is in an OP, it is because one of the other Ptls got whacked and the Tp Ldr has moved into an alternate spot to provide observation on whoever whacked the dead patrol.

HQ Ptl is the final reserve patrol. They are the last guys to be committed, because once you commit the Tp Ldr, he is nailed to the ground and can't react to changes elsewhere in his AOR.

The difference between 7 cars and 8 cars is that the Tp Ldr gets a Jr callsign, someone to provide security for him, instead of just bumbling around all by his lonesome. A 6-car troop would have the same capability as the 5-car troop (two patrols plus the Tp Ldr) except now Tp Ldr gets local security. In terms of capability, it is a step back from a 7-car troop.

I *really* like the idea of 4-man crews, even in GWagon or other light vehicles, assuming that there is room for kit storage (as there isn't on an Iltis, but might be in a GW) The extra bodies would be a big help in a lot of different situations.

DG

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Things run a bit different in reality, and the conventional thinking about how a Recce Tp operates is not always valid.

I kinda like the six car Troop.  Make the Tp Ldr a Ptl Comd with a remote like Reccecrewman says.  Deploy Sqns consisting of an SHQ and two six car Tps plus attachments.  We could sustain something like that, both in term of people and vehicles.

Cheers,

2B

 

[DG-41]

That makes for a seriously understrength Sqn though, doesn't it? Just two troops?

And if you put the HQ Ptl forward, in an OP... how do you handle resupply, or the need for the Tp Ldr to occasionally leave the OP to go get orders, or inspect his other OPs?

Yes, on operations, you make do with what you have. Agreed. Doctrine is a guideline. If you have to do a convoy escort with just a patro, or if you have 1 more OT than patrols and HQ patrol has to go set up an OP... well so be it, do what you need to do and get the job done.

But doctrine should represent best practices, no? If the intent is that a Recce Tp be able to regularly man three OPs, then that argues for a 7 or 8 car troop (three patrols and HQ in reserve). To do three OPs with just 6 cars means no reserve.

DG

 

[reccecrewman]

Well, at no point did I suggest 2 Troops. I would say leave us with our standard 3 Troops. But, go with the 6 cars in the format I previously mentioned.  Due to manning shortages throughout my tour, my Patrol operated at 7 for nearly 5 months of the tour, and it worked fine. The empty surv hole in the Alpha c/s enabled us to bomb up more heavily with water and other supplies. 

On to the Troop leader suggestion I put forward - Let me re-rig that. Put the remote in Echo, leave the Troopie with a command.  Again, remotes are not often deployed, by having it though, it gives the Troop more flexibility and also gives the Troop leader the added protection of another Coyote to move with.  Make Echo's commander a Sergeant (someone who is qualified to run a Patrol that can tend to the running of the Patrol if Troop leader is busy) This is not a patrol that is intended to be used primarily as an O.P asset, but rather if it is needed and the other two patrols are already in an O.P, well, then they can go into an O.P.  I realize that if the Troop leader is always sitting in an O.P, he cannot effectively run his Troop as well as all the other tasks he has on his plate.

Overall, the way things work now is acceptable, but adding that Echo call sign gives us flexibility - something we need as recce.  I believe the 8 car troop is just too big.  The 6 car troop has all the tools at it's disposal to get the job done.  However, we should keep our 3 Troops for maximum manning and coverage.  By going with 7 men per patrol, it gives that extra room for water and food we don't have with that 8th man's body and kit without sacrificing too much.  This will allow more time between re-supply and that means less traffic (army vehicles) moving into an O.P loc and being noticed.  As mentioned, conventional thinking isn't always the way - we can go outside the box.

 

[George Wallace]

Now I have to agree with RecceDG on this.  Six cars as you have set out is not a good option.  Three Ptls would be good with the Tp Ldr free in a seven car Troop or have him with two C/S in an eight car Troop.  I don't like the two Ptl per Troop idea, and find it not as flexible and efficient as three Ptls.  We have cut our seven car Troops down to five in 'Garrison' due to lack of manpower and equipment, and have made do for all these years, but that does not make it 'Right'.  It is a crock.  You want efficiency, then you have to be efficient.  The Armour Corps has been cut nearly to extinction.  If it wants to survive it will have to have Leaders stand up and fight for its' existance.  So far we have been greatly lacking in that department.........anyone feel a rant coming on!