A country worth fighting for? -A political Scenerio

[SpinDoc]

Ah, but here‘s the nub. In my world, it‘s a spectrum of shades of grey, yes... but that spectrum includes black on one end and white on the other. And presumably there is a line (or a band) that separates "acceptable" and "unacceptable". Treasonous behaviour definitely falls well in the unacceptable area... doesn‘t even approach the controversial grey band.

As for German soldiers in WWII... it‘s hard to characterize I think whether or not they‘re good or evil. There‘s no doubt about the SS exterminating squads, but for the common combat soldier, the majority of the fault should not lie on their shoulders. If the Cold War turned hot and NATO had to fight the Warsaw Pact, are the Communist soldiers as guilty as the Wehrmacht soldiers simply because they‘re the tools of Communist expansionist policies?

If they pillaged and raped, shot PoWs, then sure, guilty guilty guilty. But only those individuals involved. Shouldn‘t broadstroke the entire entity I don‘t think.

Wearing a uniform does not make you a robot, but it carries with it certain legal obligations, don‘t you agree?

I can see not participating in an invasion or other offensive action, but there should be little excuse not to defend your country in a conventional warfare setting with no orders to commit atrocities if one is in uniform.

 

[Pikache]

German soldiers were following a dictator.

We, as soldiers in a democratic country, are in a different position.

Whether you like it or not, Canadian governments are elected by the people. Now you can argue whether the elections are rigged, because Liberals will take Ontario all the time, which basically seals the fate of the election, but the bottom line is, the people of Canada elects the government.

We say **** you to the Canadian people in certain way if we choose not to do our job to protect Canada.

An invader is an invader, no matter what kind of gift it brings.

 

[RCA]

Proviso- This is written after Happy Hour……..

First of all for Ghost, the only orders you do not have to follow are illegal ones, not stupid ones.

Second, if you changed the nation from the US to some other would it make a difference? If it does, think about it.

As a side note, anyone who proposes we are losing “our” values because of the cultural mosaic is saying either “they” become like “us” or “they shouldn’t be allowed here, what are you really saying? It smacks of racism to me. We are a nation of immigrants, and are built on cultural tolerance. It disturbs me when we start talking about “us and “them” What god given right have we say who inhibits this land of plenty. Those who got here first?

As for the main issue, I think that the arguments about whether Canada would deserve to be invaded because of which we are is a red herring. The reason the US would invade us is because they could. And they would invade us to impose their will on us. Is this right or justified. I think not. If you wanted to be American, move down there. The US does as it pleases because it has the biggest stick. It does make it righteous

I love conspiracy theories, and being young where everything is black and white, but our government is freely elected by the majority, like it or leave it. We, as a society have decided on a course, and believe or not, governments general follow that course. In other words, we get the government we deserve. For another nation to dispute that and demand changes or change it by force…. Think about it. Why did we move into the former Yugoslavia. For that exact reason. To prevent one from imposing its will against another

Bottom line, I am a soldier, and I will protect my country from all comers, because it is the right thing to do. Either you believe in our country or turn in the uniform.

I will now get off my soapbox, have a cold one and listen to a little of Boston (yes, on top of everything, I am also culturally confused.)

 

[Jarnhamar]

RCA i think when people use "them vs us" (well for me anyways) it‘s not so much one race or colour against the others, its the difference between people who say "country first, culture next" (like in the us someone mentioned) and people who put their own culture/country when comming from another country into canada. To me they are not canadians, their outsiders visiting. I may not have said that well but thats the best way i can describe it. Regardless of colour i consider someone canadian when they consider themselves canadian. How can someone expect me to appriciate their traditions and beliefs when they dont appriciate mine.

As for following orders, as unprofessional as it is i think theres times when an order may be legal but just so stupid someone needs to do something about it. I know theres a whole idea about not challanging orders because thats not how things work but im sure everyone has examples of these types of things when an NCO had to go up to an officer and sort them out. (even vice versa)

I‘ve never actually voted in the 6 years i have been able to. I always figured your trading one evil for another, why bother. I actually watched some of the election stuff a little while ago and i liked stockwell day and the reform party. The guy seemed honest. He had his own beliefs and didnt sit on the fence regarding explosive issues like abortion etc.. I then got to see what happens when a politician gets off the fence, the dogs on both sides tear them apart. I‘ve always found it weird how everyone complains about the liberals, no one seems to like them, i‘m pretty sure they are always caught lying, yet they are always re-elected.

 

[SpinDoc]

Okay, let‘s spin it this way.

Native Canadians and their culture. Only place on earth left that houses their language, their rituals, etc etc. Is it right to assimilate all the different bands into our "culture"? Or should we give them a choice whether or not to assimilate our customs?

I mean, Canada is pretty good to the natives, compared to say, Australia... but we‘ve had some pretty dark episodes in recent history with regards to how we viewed the aboriginals.

(Don‘t get me started on Day... Remember the dinosaur theory? Or flat tax? Now THERE‘s a guy who, if he was in the army, would NOT take advice from his NCOs if he was an officer... he didn‘t listen to his advisors!)

 

[Jarnhamar]

Come on vote for day, you know you wanna

I actually don‘t know much at all about him but from what i did see i liked. He seemed down to earth. I like europe. Their taxes are included in the price. It makes counting money so much easier
(What was flat taxes and the dinosaur theory?)

Native subject is pretty tricky i guess. I would say that there is no problem if they want to keep their traditions and their herritage if they are canadian. They are after all a major part of canadian history regardless of what happened. If they don‘t want to be considered canadian natives or american natives at all and be a seperate entity then i think they should also not expect or recieve money/bennifits from the ‘canadian‘ government.

I think by governments (US and Can) feeling sorry for them/ trying to undo the past we‘ve actually did a lot of harm. I think theres a big difference between remembering/honouring and actually practicing traditions that are 200 +/- years old.

 

[SpinDoc]

If I didn‘t know better, I think you like Day because he‘s photogenic and doesn‘t speak with a funny voice =) I mean, look at Joe Clark... he‘s puffy!

Day was saying (on national TV) that he had proof that the world was 6,000 years old and that men coexisted with dinosaurs. Flat tax is like 15% (or some %) across the board for everyone rich or poor... sure sounds fair doesn‘t it? Of course it does! Too good to be true... if we thought Mulroney ran up a big deficit, wait till we try the flat tax...

I think with the natives it was more of a matter of "we need to make them better people, like us... we‘ll give them an education and teach them Christian values so they‘ll be better (and not go to heck)". A lot of cultures in the world practice ancestor-worship in addition to/instead of god(s).

 

[das]

holy cow you guys went all out eh well i agree with all of you. you all rise very good points of views but your skiping the main point and that is what country would you rather live in a US run one where every one fights and dies or a Canadian one where you have the right to be black yellow brown blue red pink what ever..

all I know is I was born a Canadian and I‘ll give my life to die as one and no one will take that right from me for i feel all Canadians care for all other canadians we are a proud people who charish are freedoms and to show it we let others from all over the world come here and live in peace and I for one would rather see there come a time when every one joins with Canada in a peaceful planet call me nuts rasist or what ever I don‘t care I‘m canadian and thats all that matters to me and I for one will die before Canada is ever take I would shed my blood to defend Canada even if I‘m a civ. I would be out on the front fighting to the end as would many Canadians I‘m sure

 

[NormR]

Interesting comments and points gentlemen/ladies?
Question is... What is Canada to you... a place to live in, raise kids in, make money in, have opinions even if we can not always speak them aloud.....
On racisicm: There are various form of derogatory comments( names:which describe the nationality not the person)that can be made about any one who is canadian which will automatically provide a stereotypical description
But.........
When it comes down to it....
Really really comes down to it...
What would you do....

I for one will consider any nation who by any means decides that they need to control or expand there borders in my country worth killing,
He** yes I will fight.

 

[rebel bill]

O.k guys, im american and we are not bad people! We respect other countrys. O.k see our point of view. Lets say this was your country in a very high terror alert, would you want terrorists coming in your country and killing 5,000 civlians? Can‘t you take a mile of land? So if you can see my point, please don‘t hate my country! By the way you guys are all saying america is racist and hates other cultures, well you guys are all puting down america, so consider your self all racists then. America, and Canada will always be friends!

 

[Albertan]

Cool scenario Micheal. Do you mind if I copy that for use on my friends?

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I‘d be interested in hearing what they have to say about it.

 

[Tpr.Orange]

WOW...This post is an excellent brain teaser..Michael i have no idea how you came up with it but major kudos on the idea...Im deffinatley going to pass this on to a couple people for their take on it.


I am a dual citizen born in Canada and adopted into a family where my father (now) is American. Canada is my home and has always been. I feel strong ties to Canada and to the US . Almost 60 %of my family lives there.

But given the scenario, as a Canadian, I would fight. Fight to the death if i have to. We have the right to safety and security of our own land and the backing and support of others. In this scenario(NOT IN REAL LIFE) the American war hungry, bunch of pigs have raided another country because of a select few individuals. It‘s beyond conception to allow them to trample on our land and take over our government. These terrorists attacking the US from Canada will be found but, the US invasion issue is based around the Americans trying to occupy new land in hopes of irradicating a few, while they in turn lose many of their civilians and soldiers.

The terrorist‘s will attack with great strength from within America. Hundreds and Thousands of innocent men women and children will die at the hands of the select few. As the Americans attempt to weed out the terrorists from Canada they will miss tons of Terrorists Soldiers crossing from Canada into the US (which will cost they dearly).

Morally the Americans are so far off the ball its insane, the Canadian Gov‘t. along with CESUS, would have discovered many of these terrorist fractions within Canada and turned over the information that is known about the devious criminals.

After the original invasion, I believe that the Canadian Gov‘t. will be forced not to disperse and give up total control to the Americans, but rather give up all information regarding the terrorists, and allow American military along with American FBI/CIA agents into Canada. This way the US can hold their own investigation and "invasion" into the terrorist orginization.

At first Canadian Forces will fight. the CF will fight with more heart and more balls then the Americans, taking some of the US forces by storm and surprise. But soon enough in sheer numbers the Americans will make a large storm up across the Canadian border backing the forces up to the point where they can begin investigation while collection whats left of the CF that do infact surrender.

(BELIEVE ME SURRENDER WOULD NOT BE AN OPTION AND IF THE CANADIAN FORCE COULD MATCH UP IN NUMBERS WE WOULD TAKE EM... but in the end i believe the sheer size of the american force will push the CF to the breaking point.)

Tons of lives lost between brothers. It would be almost like a civil war with many civilians stepping in to stop the violence between the two giant forces.

But like the song...

"Oh Canada,
I stand on guard for thee..."

 

[Spr.Earl]

Very interesting response‘s from all.

BUT!! If in uniform you are obligated to defend our country even if invaded by the U.S., in Mike‘s scenario.As you have sworn to defend Canada
when you swore allegince and signed the dotted line.

I for one would fight in or out of uniform and give them a good run for their money even if I died,at least I could say I tried.

 

[Albertan]

Here are the responces from the folks at Canadaka.net

http://www.canadaka.net/cka/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=9027#9027

 

[the patriot]

Michael,

Very interesting and thought provoking scenario indeed. I for one would never fathom seeing the stars and stripes hoisted over the Peace Tower. This country is worth protecting and dying for.

Gunnar,

One must be very careful of thoughts that may be perceived as being xenophobic. What is Canadian culture? I would hope that one‘s concept of "Canadian Culture" is not that of a bunch of White Anglo-Saxon Protestants downing a couple of beers at the mess and toasting to the Queen. There are those that are part of the cultural mosaic that are serving members in uniform and can speak more than the two national languages. These individuals are very proud of their ethnicities and cultures and make very **** good soldiers.

-the patriot-

 

[Jarnhamar]

"BUT!! If in uniform you are obligated to defend our country even if invaded by the U.S"

Tell that to the soldiers in quebec who were ready to rip off the canadian flag and join the country of quebec.

The MPs who went around the army base in quebec asking that should have been tried for treason instead of it being chalked up as a "misunderstanding".

 

[Pikache]

Your Oath of Allegiance must mean something, not just mere words.

 

[Long in the tooth]

Excellent Scenario, and great thread! This demonstrates that in a true democracy decisions must be made by concensus or the political bank of goodwill is quickly exhausted, as is our case now with the US. If I may comment on the validity of the situation however, it has some flaws that are on the verge of being fatal.

Firstly, any debate over water would involve the great lakes commission, one of the most effective and powerful bilateral committees in the world. In other words, any disagreements would not be between the US and Canada, but involve Ontario, New York, Michigan, Illinois and Ohio. All have vested interests in the well being of the lakes and action by the US government to divert waters would be akin to the NEP - very expensive politically.

Terrorist attacks by WMD solely on the US assume a focus by terrorists not in evidence. One interpretation of the Koran is that anyone not a muslim is an infidel, and I don‘t believe they would discriminate between Canadian and US infidels. (As an aside, our government should not assume that the thin line on a map will protect us from Muslim attacks because we‘re ‘Canadian‘. So far it‘s just the terrorists luck most casualties have been American.)

Lastly, the question asks if Canadian soldiers will follow orders, while assuming that our plethora of police and intelligence services fail to cooperate completely with the US. What‘s their motive? Surly it is the protection of the general public that is best served by the sharing of information with their contemporaries.

Hope I haven‘t strayed too far from the mark, but wanted to make my comments. Facinating thread.

 

[cheechue]

"BUT!! If in uniform you are obligated to defend our country even if invaded by the U.S"

Tell that to the soldiers in quebec who were ready to rip off the canadian flag and join the country of quebec.

The MPs who went around the army base in quebec asking that should have been tried for treason instead of it being chalked up as a "misunderstanding".

Really? Didn‘t know that happened...when was this?