A Deeply Fractured US

[Remius]

If you an actually look at POTUS’s voting record pre Presidency, he’s arguably a lot more Republican leaning than many others (inc DJT).
I don’t really like him, but I do think he’s been a better President for us than 45 was…

I always find it funny when people lump Democrats as the same ilk as the LPC. if anything the democrats of the US a very much like the Conservatives in Canada, they may actually be a bit right of them. By Canadian standards, if you like CPC policies then you really should have no issues with Democrat policies (as a whole and in terms of party beliefs). If you align yourself with staunch Republican beliefs then the CPC should horrify you as far as parties go.

 

[KevinB]

I always find it funny when people lump Democrats as the same ilk as the LPC. if anything the democrats of the US a very much like the Conservatives in Canada, they may actually be a bit right of them. By Canadian standards, if you like CPC policies then you really should have no issues with Democrat policies (as a whole and in terms of party beliefs). If you align yourself with staunch Republican beliefs then the CPC should horrify you as far as parties go.

Gun Laws, Abortion, and a few others are where one sees major disagreement in the parties.
A lot of Southern Democrats are gun owners, and their Reps know it’s an issue, the same goes for other issues in different places.

Honestly I’ve been so discouraged with both parties of late, it’s more a problem of finding a candidate that one doesn’t despise and can tolerate to me.

 

[mariomike]

My wife votes in their elections.

As an outsider, I wonder: Who will they trust with their launch codes?

As far as team popularity goes, presidential-candidate Nikki Haley, a Republican, put it this way,

We’ve lost the popular vote in seven of the last eight presidential elections.

Maybe she can turn that streak around? < dunno emoji.

 

[RangerRay]

I don't know if I'd call the Scandinavian countries (specifically Norway, Denmark, and Sweden - not sure about Finland) "communist". They are most definitely socialist though.

Except Scandinavia gas a flourishing private sector; the means of production have not been seized by the government.

They might be better described as “capitalist welfare states” like us.

 

[JLB50]

To some people, anything smacking of government control over peoples’ lives is tantamount to socialism or communism.

Huge numbers of Americans (including some of my own extended family) are terrified at the thought of a ‘socialist‘ medical system being established in the U.S. They point to Obamacare which, admittedly, has had problems from Day One, due largely to the compromises that had to be made in Congress just to get the bill passed. But at the same time, when I mention to my U.S. family members about how, for example, my late sister and some of my other relatives either could not get any care prior to Obamacare or they had to put another mortgage on their house to afford barely tolerable health care, then people go silent on the issue. All they know is that “socialism is bad” and ”free enterprise is good”.

I just wonder how Americans reconcile that public education, which has been around for ages, is basically a type of socialism. And let’s not forget about their Social Security, which, if I recall correctly, was first introduced by Germany’s Bismarck in the late 1800s to help blunt the appeal of socialism/communism in that country.

I don’t see any benefits at all in communism. But I do see benefits in both restrained capitalism and restrained socialism. Life shouldn’t always have to be an either/or choice.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The old myth that "Democrats are akshully to the right of Canadian Liberals" ought be buried. The Democratic party at present is manifestly influenced by its leftmost sub-faction, which itself is not particularly distinguishable from where the NDP sits. The law-and-order, solvent-social-welfare-programs, our-roots-are-the-working-class Democratic party hasn't been in much evidence for several years.

 

[Remius]

The old myth that "Democrats are akshully to the right of Canadian Liberals" ought be buried. The Democratic party at present is manifestly influenced by its leftmost sub-faction, which itself is not particularly distinguishable from where the NDP sits. The law-and-order, solvent-social-welfare-programs, our-roots-are-the-working-class Democratic party hasn't been in much evidence for several years.

I disagree with your assessment. While there is a progressive caucus in the the Democratic Party, the CPC closely ressembles the right side of democrats than anything the republicans have.

 

[Halifax Tar]

To some people, anything smacking of government control over peoples’ lives is tantamount to socialism or communism.

Huge numbers of Americans (including some of my own extended family) are terrified at the thought of a ‘socialist‘ medical system being established in the U.S. They point to Obamacare which, admittedly, has had problems from Day One, due largely to the compromises that had to be made in Congress just to get the bill passed. But at the same time, when I mention to my U.S. family members about how, for example, my late sister and some of my other relatives either could not get any care prior to Obamacare or they had to put another mortgage on their house to afford barely tolerable health care, then people go silent on the issue. All they know is that “socialism is bad” and ”free enterprise is good”.

I just wonder how Americans reconcile that public education, which has been around for ages, is basically a type of socialism. And let’s not forget about their Social Security, which, if I recall correctly, was first introduced by Germany’s Bismarck in the late 1800s to help blunt the appeal of socialism/communism in that country.

I don’t see any benefits at all in communism. But I do see benefits in both restrained capitalism and restrained socialism. Life shouldn’t always have to be an either/or choice.

I don't see many rich Americans coming to Canada for medical treatment, or many Americans at all. But I see lots of Canadians going the other way.

My understanding is our current iteration of the public school system was developed to acclimatize and promote youth towards factory work during the industrial revolution and beyond. Its basically an extension big business and industry. So my understanding is its not a socialist measure, its actually a Capitalist measure.

 

[JLB50]

I don't see many rich Americans coming to Canada for medical treatment, or many Americans at all. But I see lots of Canadians going the other way.

My understanding is our current iteration of the public school system was developed to acclimatize and promote youth towards factory work during the industrial revolution and beyond. Its basically an extension big business and industry. So my understanding is its not a socialist measure, its actually a Capitalist measure.

Quite sadly, with OHIP here in Ontario being a sad state of its former self, you are correct. Underfunding? Not enough doctors and nurses to do the work? Or being allowed to work in one province but not the other? Lots of problems here. I do have two U.S. cousins (one in Arizona, the other in Nebraska) who are doctors and making a LOT more than M.D.s here; the pay U.S. doctors get sometimes borders on the obscene and has definitely attracted a lot of Canadian medicos to move south.

But I do recall how former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin (when she was running as V.P.) used to talk about how awful things would get in the U.S. if they had the socialist pinko medical care with the Canadian-style “death panels”. Yet later on admitted that her uncle used to cross the border into Canada to access the health care here...hmmm, makes me wonder whether she wanted to see harm come to him.

The main thing that bothers me about the health care system here is that it’s basically provincially operated. Kind of like how the beer companies have been severely restricted in their inter-provincial trade because of “protectionist” laws. I know this will ruffle a few feathers amongst members here but I’d like to see a truly national health care system in Canada.

In summary, many have said the U.S. is a great country to be in if you’re rich, so-so if you’re middle class and terrible if you’re poor. With the huge influx of migrants and refugees there in the last few decades, only time will tell whether that country will successfully meet those and other challenges. Or not.

 

[Good2Golf]

The main thing that bothers me about the health care system here is that it’s basically provincially operated. Kind of like how the beer companies have been severely restricted in their inter-provincial trade because of “protectionist” laws. I know this will ruffle a few feathers amongst members here but I’d like to see a truly national health care system in Canada.

I think informed people actually know this to be true. However, Canada remains a federation, not a republic, so that will likely remain the way. Health, education, beer&wine…provincially-implemented with some federal sprinkles of support to justify condescending yet minimally effective ‘Fedsplaining.’

 

[JLB50]

I think informed people actually know this to be true. However, Canada remains a federation, not a republic, so that will likely remain the way. Health, education, beer&wine…provincially-implemented with some federal sprinkles of support to justify condescending yet minimally effective ‘Fedsplaining.’

I agree. Probably a medically-altered pig will fly before we have national health care.

 

[Remius]

I don't see many rich Americans coming to Canada for medical treatment, or many Americans at all. But I see lots of Canadians going the other way.

Absolutely true for a lot of elective surgeries and so on. Why wait years in pain for knee surgery when you can get it down south for 10k next week. For some it’s worth the cost of fixing the pain.

However my family down south have the equity they have in their homes as part of their long term health care planning. Ie selling or borrowing against their homes to pay for medical expenses. Not to mention avoiding early treatment tito avoid paying or dipping into their limits.

 

[JLB50]

Absolutely true for a lot of elective surgeries and so on. Why wait years in pain for knee surgery when you can get it down south for 10k next week. For some it’s worth the cost of fixing the pain.

However my family down south have the equity they have in their homes as part of their long term health care planning. Ie selling or borrowing against their homes to pay for medical expenses. Not to mention avoiding early treatment tito avoid paying or dipping into their limits.

My parents had been living in the Midwest and belonged to an HMO (Humana). About 12 years ago, my dad needed surgery for an aortic valve replacement and quadruple bypass surgery. I must say the medical care was good. But when the bill came in, it was for almost $300,000. My parents were told that the $300,000 was basically the “retail” rate and that they wouldn’t have to pay THAT much. Eventually the HMO kicked in and paid the wholesale rate but my parents still had to cough up nearly $20,000. It made me wonder who would pay the retail rate...the poor who couldn’t even afford the $20,000 my parents paid? And then there’s my sister who lost her job and her health care coverage along with it (this was before the COBRA legislation which took effect shortly after she died from cancer). As I see it, once Obamacare came into being, it was generally an improvement for many who otherwise had nothing but it was and still is a flawed program.

By the way, not all U.S. doctors are against what Canada has (or had) for a medical system. I used to know one doctor pretty well who worked at the Mayo Clinic and said he much preferred, all facts considered, the Canadian health care system over what the U.S. has. Whatever the inequities of the U.S. or Canadian medical system, I think huge improvements to both systems need to be made, even if one isn’t dumped in favour of the other.

 

[quadrapiper]

My parents had been living in the Midwest and belonged to an HMO (Humana). About 12 years ago, my dad needed surgery for an aortic valve replacement and quadruple bypass surgery. I must say the medical care was good. But when the bill came in, it was for almost $300,000. My parents were told that the $300,000 was basically the “retail” rate and that they wouldn’t have to pay THAT much. Eventually the HMO kicked in and paid the wholesale rate but my parents still had to cough up nearly $20,000. It made me wonder who would pay the retail rate...the poor who couldn’t even afford the $20,000 my parents paid? And then there’s my sister who lost her job and her health care coverage along with it (this was before the COBRA legislation which took effect shortly after she died from cancer). As I see it, once Obamacare came into being, it was generally an improvement for many who otherwise had nothing but it was and still is a flawed program.

By the way, not all U.S. doctors are against what Canada has (or had) for a medical system. I used to know one doctor pretty well who worked at the Mayo Clinic and said he much preferred, all facts considered, the Canadian health care system over what the U.S. has. Whatever the inequities of the U.S. or Canadian medical system, I think huge improvements to both systems need to be made, even if one isn’t dumped in favour of the other.

I think the US is actually more in need of a national health care system than Canada: the individual states have so many peculiarities (see especially abortion, HRT/GAS, and birth control, plus more boring questions of corruption, competence, and capability) that the only way to create something that doesn't suck is for it to be FedCare.

That's not to say I wouldn't like to see a more national approach to healthcare, especially the provider/facilities side (leave public health and local "weird stuff" to the provinces). Set a high but achievable bar for medical care availability, link up unusual cases with the singular specialist or clinic that handles x, and strip out as much overhead as possible.

 

[Brad Sallows]

I disagree with your assessment. While there is a progressive caucus in the the Democratic Party, the CPC closely ressembles the right side of democrats than anything the republicans have.

Must be painful to squint so much to ignore Republican/Conservative positions on fiscal responsibility, size of government, same-sex marriage, "family values", personal responsibility, firearms, contentious contemporary social issues.

 

[Brad Sallows]

In summary, many have said the U.S. is a great country to be in if you’re rich, so-so if you’re middle class and terrible if you’re poor. With the huge influx of migrants and refugees there in the last few decades, only time will tell whether that country will successfully meet those and other challenges. Or not.

It's better than so-so for the middle class. What "many have said" doesn't square well with the plain ordinary numbers used to compare what people in different countries can consume for particular income levels.

 

[Brad Sallows]

We really don't want the feds running anything. They are the same bright sparks who have opened the taps on immigration without any plan to deal with the resulting pressures on accommodation, health care, schools, etc. Best politicians can seem to manage is to let ride-sharing services compete with cab companies so that there are more jobs available for foreign-trained doctors.

 

[Remius]

Must be painful to squint so much to ignore Republican/Conservative positions on fiscal responsibility, size of government, same-sex marriage, "family values", personal responsibility, firearms, contentious contemporary social issues.

The CPC dropped some of those things from official party policy. Despite railing against firearm laws here the CPC still accepts regulations that republicans would balk at loudly. The CPC still supports universal health care, supply management and a host of various social programs republicans would revolt over. It’s current leader is pro life and supports gay marriage. You forget that there is a progressive wing in the CPC. Although these days it seems to be shrinking…

 

[JLB50]

It's better than so-so for the middle class. What "many have said" doesn't square well with the plain ordinary numbers used to compare what people in different countries can consume for particular income levels.

I realize this whole thing can be argued ad infinitum regarding the U.S. middle class. I also say that, despite Canada having a supposedly strong middle class, issues like the absurd cost of housing are approaching a severe crisis point here if they haven’t already. But in recent years, some of the various indices of the so-called “happiness scales”, which take into account various economic and social factors, tend to show the U.S. as having slipped quite a bit in its rankings, usually lower than many European countries, Canada and Australia.

Don’t get me wrong, being middle class in the U.S. is still much much better than in many countries, but it has lost a lot of its lustre as many of my American friends in Florida and family in the Midwest will attest.

1. The middle class is large in many Western European countries, but it is losing ground in places

A large majority of adults in the selected Western European countries live in middle-income households. In 2010, the shares of adults who are middle

www.pewresearch.org

Which Country Has the Richest Middle Class?

For decades, the United States boasted had the richest middle class. However, as of 2015, Canada has the wealthiest middle class of any country in the world.

www.investopedia.com

 

[Gunnar]

From perusing Wiki, PET’s father was born and raised on a farm, studied law at school, and built up a chain of gas stations that he eventually sold to an oil company. Self-made millionaire,

From shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations. Lol.