A Deeply Fractured US

[Halifax Tar]

That would be an indication that this might not be as political as some think.

Possibly. There are signs that his standing in the GOP and with the persuadable middle is not rising as a result of this. His base though and his supporters though are definitely more motivated and his fundraising certainly indicates that. And acquitted or found guilty it won’t matter, the end result will be to his benefit as far as this case goes.

Possible. But so far I have yet to see the promised impeachment of Biden, locking up of Clinton (promised way back in 2016) etc. I suppose it is early still but we’ll see. It would not shock me though.

Be careful the box you open, some of them are Pandora's.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Trump could be unstoppable in his race to secure the Republican nomination but I think more Americans (even more so than last time) feel he’s too toxic. But if, and that’s a big IF, he did get elected president, he would get revenge that would probably be unprecedented in American history. I know some here will take issue with this but the man is sick in the head, unstable and extremely dangerous despite giving those who would vote for him some of the things they want. If he gets in, you can kiss Ukraine goodbye and quite possibly NATO as well.

I think you're fear mongering. And biased. Like many on here

I think he's distasteful. But I get the appeal. And I don't think he's any more dangerous, internationally, than what the US has now.

The US is massively fractured. And neither what the Dems or the Reps have is a uniting force. In fact they are quite the opposite.

Internally, he has the potential to be a huge threat to Dems. If he survives this court action, and wins the next election, all entirely possible, I can see his vengeance being absolutely wicked.

 

[mariomike]

If he does not win, he will say he did. Again. With predictable results.

( No, I can not see into the future. But, based on past performance, I believe it to be true. )

 

[Good2Golf]

I think he's distasteful. But I get the appeal. And I don't think he's any more dangerous, internationally, than what the US has now.

This. Separate from his direct actions and character, to not appreciate the source/level of dissatisfaction is to be ignorant of how best to resolve the worsening situation.

 

[Remius]

Be careful the box you open, some of them are Pandora's.

I don’t think you know what that means lol. Reread what I wrote and show me said Pandora’s Box.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I don’t think you know what that means lol. Reread what I wrote and show me said Pandora’s Box.

I'm not talking about you, per say, I'm talking about this arraignment of a former president. And the precedence it sets.

And the knock on effects in the future, when this comes around and bites back.

 

[brihard]

At the end of the day the Indictment was handed down by a jury of 22 people.
One can argue that it started as Political, but there was enough evidence to get a quorum of those people to agree that was the likelihood of 38 crimes committed by DJT

Yes, though Grand Jury indictment is to the threshold of Probable Cause, which is much lower than what’s required for conviction. That said, prosecutors won’t charge a trial they don’t think they can win.

 

[dapaterson]

That said, prosecutors won’t charge a trial they don’t think they can win.

Prosecutors have been known to over charge as leverage in plea bargaining. Not saying it is the case in this instance, but it has happened in the past.

 

[Brad Sallows]

All I know is what actually came about isn't the slam dunk the Dems were looking for.

And if this gets acquitted or thrown or what ever going in Trumps favor, Trump will probably be unstoppable.

And then you had better watch out as every Dem official who so much as jay walked is gonna have target on their backs.

Trump faces more serious, and likely more provable, charges in other cases. The problem is that politically, every blatantly weak contrived gambit that looks like pure revenge politics delegitimizes other efforts. Ordinary people look at the whole picture, not each issue in perfect legal isolation.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Trump faces more serious, and likely more provable, charges in other cases. The problem is that politically, every blatantly weak contrived gambit that looks like pure revenge politics delegitimizes other efforts. Ordinary people look at the whole picture, not each issue in perfect legal isolation.

He would be best ignored, if that's possible.

Nothing would hurt him more than not giving him the attention so deeply craves.

 

[Remius]

I'm not talking about you, per say, I'm talking about this arraignment of a former president. And the precedence it sets.

And the knock on effects in the future, when this comes around and bites back.

Got it. Yes.

 

[Brad Sallows]

At the end of the day the Indictment was handed down by a jury of 22 people.
One can argue that it started as Political, but there was enough evidence to get a quorum of those people to agree that was the likelihood of 38 crimes committed by DJT

Saying a majority of New Yorkers on a jury voted to indict isn't a strong statement.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Prosecutors have been known to over charge as leverage in plea bargaining. Not saying it is the case in this instance, but it has happened in the past.

If the 34 charges are just 34 different references to individual payments, invoices, etc all associated with the single hush money payment, the number of charges doesn't amount to much. It would be difficult to argue that, say, September's cheque was a crime but October's was not. So the usual threat overcharging represents - that a jury might give the prosecutor one or two just because they think there must be fire where there's so much smoke - doesn't apply. It's all or nothing.

 

[JLB50]

I think you're fear mongering. And biased. Like many on here

I think he's distasteful. But I get the appeal. And I don't think he's any more dangerous, internationally, than what the US has now.

The US is massively fractured. And neither what the Dems or the Reps have is a uniting force. In fact they are quite the opposite.

Internally, he has the potential to be a huge threat to Dems. If he survives this court action, and wins the next election, all entirely possible, I can see his vengeance being absolutely wicked.

Fear mongering??? I don’t think so. While I realize some think of him as a kind of saviour of all things good about America, I think of him as a racist, self-serving, lying, law-breaking, rapist and, yes, extremely dangerous person to have at the helm of the largest democracy in the world. Yes, Americans living In the rust belt voted for him to bring jobs back (which he didn’t really do). Also, many of those Americans worried (and rightfully so) about the huge numbers of people pouring over the U.S./Mexican border voted for him so he could build the wall, with Mexico paying for it (yeah, right). And, yes, there’s a lot wrong with the whole “woke” movement as well as the extremes to which many in the LGBTQ2+ movement have gone to get acceptance. Granted, these are difficult times and there’s a lot happening socially with many Americans wishing for simpler days. But a lot of what’s happening is occurring on a worldwide basis and not located to just North America. Much of what’s happening with regards to social changes has much to do with the sharing of and speed of information technology. As much as Trump wants people to think he will give them deliverance, he is a fraud.

Internationally, given his highly-suspect relationship with Putin, do you really think he would improve the situation in Europe? In fact, just the other day he remarked how he expects Putin will take over ALL of Ukraine. That’s great coming from the so-called leader (or would-be leader) of the free world. From other comments such as denigrating Montenegro as a member of NATO to African countries, Haiti and El Salvador as “shithole countries”. Yeah, he’s a godsend to Putin. One of the few things I kind of agree with him on is China’s increasing aggressions, but even with that I fear how he would handle any major crisis.

Anyway, I stand by my comments. If you want to call it fear mongering, then so be it. I still say he is mentally unbalanced and to not say it is to be silent in the face of coming danger. There are many things wrong with America and Americans, much the same as things that need to be improved in this country. Unfortunately, Biden is not a great leader, he is in my opinion a mediocre caretaker president. Nevertheless, I prefer a caretaker president with a sense of morality and ethics over someone I feel is deranged and dangerous.

I was born in the U.S. during the Truman years and witnessed a number of successive presidents, some good and some not so good. Even those who lost the race were, in my opinion, capable of running the country had they been elected. That includes Barry Goldwater. He was intelligent, sane and a person of high morals (well, as much as any politician can be) and was widely misunderstood on many issues. As for Trump, I agree with his psychiatrist niece who says his finger should not be on the nuclear trigger. So, no, Trump should not be president.

 

[KevinB]

Saying a majority of New Yorkers on a jury voted to indict isn't a strong statement.

Well that same group of people will be a jury later in the criminal trial to determine the result…

 

[Brad Sallows]

Americans chose Trump because the alternative was Clinton. All the rest of the arguments - racism, walls, jobs, MAGA, etc - are just noise, even the multitude of "explainers" that sought to prove one or more of the above.

What happened in 2016? A much larger than usual percentage of voters selected either the Green or Libertarian candidate. The shift was enough to swing the election to Clinton, had it not happened. Compared to previous elections, Clinton lost more of the Democratic vote than Trump lost of the Republican vote - that's her fault. In particular, it is improbable that voters who previously chose Obama in two elections suddenly became racist/nativist and, more improbable that racists/nativists voted in greater numbers for the (emphatically non-racist/non-nativist) Green or Libertarian candidate.

Trump would talk about revenge, but it'd be bluster. Four years of observation ought to be enough even for fairly obtuse people to understand that Trump has no ability to focus on something and see it through. Stuff got done during the Trump administration because people in the administration wanted to do things; Trump showed up to make speeches and take credit.

Trump broke a lot of heads, but I've noticed even some of the commentators I've consigned to the broken-headed bin have emerged to criticize Bragg's gambit. There are of course still some broken-headed people trying to put on the lipstick, but fewer than usual.

[Add: and recollecting that voters chose Trump over Clinton, what is the wisdom in elevating Trump's popularity among likely primary voters when the likely Democratic candidate is either Biden or Harris, the two weakest candidates in any short list of 20 Democrats paired off against Trump?]

 

[QV]

Fear mongering??? I don’t think so. While I realize some think of him as a kind of saviour of all things good about America, I think of him as a racist, self-serving, lying, law-breaking, rapist and, yes, extremely dangerous person to have at the helm of the largest democracy in the world. Yes, Americans living In the rust belt voted for him to bring jobs back (which he didn’t really do). Also, many of those Americans worried (and rightfully so) about the huge numbers of people pouring over the U.S./Mexican border voted for him so he could build the wall, with Mexico paying for it (yeah, right). And, yes, there’s a lot wrong with the whole “woke” movement as well as the extremes to which many in the LGBTQ2+ movement have gone to get acceptance. Granted, these are difficult times and there’s a lot happening socially with many Americans wishing for simpler days. But a lot of what’s happening is occurring on a worldwide basis and not located to just North America. Much of what’s happening with regards to social changes has much to do with the sharing of and speed of information technology. As much as Trump wants people to think he will give them deliverance, he is a fraud.

Internationally, given his highly-suspect relationship with Putin, do you really think he would improve the situation in Europe? In fact, just the other day he remarked how he expects Putin will take over ALL of Ukraine. That’s great coming from the so-called leader (or would-be leader) of the free world. From other comments such as denigrating Montenegro as a member of NATO to African countries, Haiti and El Salvador as “shithole countries”. Yeah, he’s a godsend to Putin. One of the few things I kind of agree with him on is China’s increasing aggressions, but even with that I fear how he would handle any major crisis.

Anyway, I stand by my comments. If you want to call it fear mongering, then so be it. I still say he is mentally unbalanced and to not say it is to be silent in the face of coming danger. There are many things wrong with America and Americans, much the same as things that need to be improved in this country. Unfortunately, Biden is not a great leader, he is in my opinion a mediocre caretaker president. Nevertheless, I prefer a caretaker president with a sense of morality and ethics over someone I feel is deranged and dangerous.

I was born in the U.S. during the Truman years and witnessed a number of successive presidents, some good and some not so good. Even those who lost the race were, in my opinion, capable of running the country had they been elected. That includes Barry Goldwater. He was intelligent, sane and a person of high morals (well, as much as any politician can be) and was widely misunderstood on many issues. As for Trump, I agree with his psychiatrist niece who says his finger should not be on the nuclear trigger. So, no, Trump should not be president.

Those are some heavy believes formulated without any evidence. So how were those four years under POTUS 45, you know the four years of great economic growth and no wars?

 

[Blackadder1916]

Yes, though Grand Jury indictment is to the threshold of Probable Cause, which is much lower than what’s required for conviction. That said, prosecutors won’t charge a trial they don’t think they can win.

No discussion of the grand jury system can be complete without mentioning "a ham sandwich".

 

[dimsum]

Those are some heavy believes formulated without any evidence. So how were those four years under POTUS 45, you know the four years of great economic growth and no wars?

About that...

US 2020 election: The economy under Trump in six charts

President Trump claims he has been responsible for the strongest US economy ever. What do the numbers show?

www.bbc.com

Trump revokes Obama rule on reporting drone strike deaths

The US will not have to publish how many civilians are killed in drone strikes outside of war zones.

www.bbc.com

So, the growth (setting aside Covid bc no leader could have changed the economic fallout) was continuing a trend from Obama's tenure, and the Trump administration stopped publishing UAS strikes.

 

[mariomike]

Fear mongering??? I don’t think so. While I realize some think of him as a kind of saviour of all things good about America, I think of him as a racist, self-serving, lying, law-breaking, rapist and, yes, extremely dangerous person to have at the helm of the largest democracy in the world. Yes, Americans living In the rust belt voted for him to bring jobs back (which he didn’t really do). Also, many of those Americans worried (and rightfully so) about the huge numbers of people pouring over the U.S./Mexican border voted for him so he could build the wall, with Mexico paying for it (yeah, right). And, yes, there’s a lot wrong with the whole “woke” movement as well as the extremes to which many in the LGBTQ2+ movement have gone to get acceptance. Granted, these are difficult times and there’s a lot happening socially with many Americans wishing for simpler days. But a lot of what’s happening is occurring on a worldwide basis and not located to just North America. Much of what’s happening with regards to social changes has much to do with the sharing of and speed of information technology. As much as Trump wants people to think he will give them deliverance, he is a fraud.

Internationally, given his highly-suspect relationship with Putin, do you really think he would improve the situation in Europe? In fact, just the other day he remarked how he expects Putin will take over ALL of Ukraine. That’s great coming from the so-called leader (or would-be leader) of the free world. From other comments such as denigrating Montenegro as a member of NATO to African countries, Haiti and El Salvador as “shithole countries”. Yeah, he’s a godsend to Putin. One of the few things I kind of agree with him on is China’s increasing aggressions, but even with that I fear how he would handle any major crisis.

Anyway, I stand by my comments. If you want to call it fear mongering, then so be it. I still say he is mentally unbalanced and to not say it is to be silent in the face of coming danger. There are many things wrong with America and Americans, much the same as things that need to be improved in this country. Unfortunately, Biden is not a great leader, he is in my opinion a mediocre caretaker president. Nevertheless, I prefer a caretaker president with a sense of morality and ethics over someone I feel is deranged and dangerous.

I was born in the U.S. during the Truman years and witnessed a number of successive presidents, some good and some not so good. Even those who lost the race were, in my opinion, capable of running the country had they been elected. That includes Barry Goldwater. He was intelligent, sane and a person of high morals (well, as much as any politician can be) and was widely misunderstood on many issues. As for Trump, I agree with his psychiatrist niece who says his finger should not be on the nuclear trigger. So, no, Trump should not be president.

My wife votes in their elections. I'm just a 2-cent poker chip looking in from the outside wondering who will get the launch codes.

I agree with your opinion of Barry Goldwater. But, do you remember the "Daisy" ad? As an "Eisenhower baby" I do!

As far as former presidents go, President Carter is "on the canvas", so to speak. A WW2 vet. Lost re-elction. Took it like a man. And has lived his life as a good man ever since.

Saw a TV interview of President Nixon the other day. Another WW2 vet. He lost a close, a very, very close election to JFK. He too took it like a man. The interview was ten years after he left office. He was intelligent, and well-informed on just about everything. Very enjoyable interview to watch. He was entitled to lifetime Secret Service protection. But, knew what it was costing the taxpayers. So, voluntarily gave it up.

In a word, these men were "presidential". I wonder if the world shall ever see their likes again?